User Tag List

First 2345614 Last

Results 31 to 40 of 174

  1. #31
    Senior Member nottaprettygal's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    MBTI
    INTj
    Posts
    1,641

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by INTJMom View Post
    I hope everyone will please forgive me for misunderstanding the intent and tone of the OP.
    Hey now. How come you only agreed with me after Jennifer's post?

    Anyway, I didn't say that you misunderstood to be critical. Really, I just thought it was interesting how two people can interpret a post in totally different ways due to their beliefs (me=agnostic you=christian).

  2. #32
    it's a nuclear device antireconciler's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    Intj
    Enneagram
    5w4 so
    Socionics
    INTj
    Posts
    867

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by INTJMom View Post
    Your OP assumed the guy was wrong and you wanted to disabuse him of his thinking.
    With such a hostile stance, you would never be satisfied until the entire thing was explained from beginning to end.
    And as I said, though you refuse to agree, faith is how we comprehend God, not logic.
    God did it that way on purpose "to confound the wise" as the scripture says.
    If you refuse to engage your heart in addition to your head, you will never know God.
    I do, after all, understand your reasons and am one with you in your sentiment. The fancy sophistry of the prideful doesn't itself bring anyone closer to God. I understand. And we could never appreciate God without engaging our hearts and, in a way, allowing ourselves to come into understanding rather than trying to make understanding for ourselves. Yes, I agree, and none of our reasoning means anything without faith.

    And I do, after all, have faith. I have a faith in the gift of life and love that God has given me. I need nothing else. My cup is filled to overflowing, and I feel no need to add to it or take away from it.

    Nonetheless, my faith lies with existence. All of existence is bound by causation. Everything bound by causation is created from its cause. Thus all things have cause. Thus all things have reason for being, and all things are reasonable. My faith is in the reasonableness of everything. My faith is in reason. Reason is governed by logic. My faith is in logic. If you do not have faith in logic, you have faith in what does not exist; you have faith in nothing. That is the result.

    Quote Originally Posted by DeliriousDisposition View Post
    Wouldn't it be more likely that, by anthropromorphising this + other 'deities', humans needed the excuse that they have a Grand Parent watching out for them but that allows them to make mistakes b/c they need to make them? I recall from Noah's Arc (+ similarities in most cultural holy texts + myths) that God wiped OUT everyone due to an abundance of Sin. Wouldn't it seem likely God would remove Free Will? Wouldn't we as a more advanced technological society, who probably has destroyed more and is more 'corrupted', than other societies from the past be better off destroyed than allowed to live?

    What is 'sin'? Who/what is to be condemned? Whomever/whatever is defined by the majorities' of peoples during points in society against the minorities' around them. Just as "Jesus" was an invented minority scapegoat "against the majority of corrupted Jews" (who have paid ever since). We do it to others. If anything, the Jesus story should help other's to embrace differences (He did touched lepers, prostitutes, the outcast!). If he existed, I can imagine him hugging a homosexual not b/c this person is sick and needs his salvation but b/c this person needs his love and acceptance. We all want and need love. We're all different. We all rage against the machines of ignorance when not understood. Some enjoy being misunderstood (having been failed), I'd think most would want to be understood.

    [...] People don't surface with religion when thrust out the womb, they're parents put a religion onto them. Cyclical pattern. Until one breaks away. Adopts new religion, becomes atheist or something else enitrely.

    [...] The invention of Jesus, made conscientious and pure, didn't have to die but people needed him to suit their needs, w/e they may be and for whom. Nietzsche proclaimed "God is Dead." (people's morals are dead) I'd think it's also along the lines of "God is dead within Us" (our morals are dead). We grow with the "God within us" if allowed to flourish w/o corruption/not accepting others and connect with the "Gods within other's" when we accept differences and the (conscientious souls/minds of) "Jesuses" outside whom cross our paths in life, directly or inadvertently, help us connect with our Inner God again.

    Edit: And we can become Jesus too and help others! We even have our very own local one on the forums, right? Who says he has to be the only one?!
    You betrayed your Nietzschean influence long before you came clean about it. I like it. Well said.


    Quote Originally Posted by Seanan View Post
    I punish whenever I step out of His will for me. I find Him always trying to, lovingly, protect me from that.... as do most parents (creators) I might add. I may not always agree with nor want to do His will and have suffered the consequeces every time I've rebelled. When I come back to Him, He is always waiting with open arms. No... I'm not religious.. that's man's law.
    This is my experience as well. The one who feels guilty is me. The one who accuses is me. I am both executed and executioner. And I fail. (I can't kill myself any more than God can microwave a burrito so hot that not even He can eat it. It's contradictory.) I try to kill myself in this way, and I fail. In a way, this is my own kind of victory over death. I try to condemn myself to death, yet I will not die. I stand, alive, defying the voice of "justice". I let me attack me, and I do not attack back, and I am moved to mercy, like Teto who bites Nausicaa, and encountering no resistance, is moved to mercy.

    But this is me taking responsibility. I am taking responsibility for my attitude toward myself. I am un-projecting my dictates to reality. Where they were imposed on me by others, I now absorb them into myself. I say "no, I am responsible for what I am seeing. It is I who am giving everything I see all the meaning it has." This is the Holy Instant, Atonement, or forgiveness. This is the breaking of the spell, the awakening from the dream.

    God does not need to punish my trespasses. I am responsible for the entire dynamic wholesale. I made it. I am the one empowering it. It is an artifact of my mind, my mind in its dream of its separateness from God, but I can turn away from it if I can stop believing in it and stop feeding it and turn away from it (yes, again, like Lot from Sodom).

    But, then again, if we can allow everything to be God's responsibility, in a way, we are relinquished from the need to affirm our separation, and the result is the same. If we give up on our self-defense and have faith that God will save us, then in a way, the result is the same.

    I feel closer to being able to answer my own question with what I've learned from the many excellent replies here.
    ~ a n t i r e c o n c i l e r
    What is death, dies.
    What is life, lives.

  3. #33
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Posts
    13

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Seanan View Post
    Sorry... I could not stay with it. When anything flys in the face of my experience, I quit listening. (well, unless its something new I haven't heard before and already tested) As soon as he said "God punishes" I quit. I, simply, have not found this to be true. I punish whenever I step out of His will for me. I find Him always trying to, lovingly, protect me from that.... as do most parents (creators) I might add. I may not always agree with nor want to do His will and have suffered the consequeces every time I've rebelled. When I come back to Him, He is always waiting with open arms. No... I'm not religious.. that's man's law.
    Wow, very well said!

  4. #34
    Senior Member Journey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    6
    Socionics
    INFj
    Posts
    261

    Smile

    I confess I couldn't read all of this, and I have dial up so I couldn't listen to the tape, but I got the gist of it.

    You covered the first Adam's sin and Jesus came as the second Adam to set things right with God. Jesus died in our place to set us in a right relationship with God, period.

    2 Cor 5:19
    God was reconciling the world to Himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them.
    NIV

    2 Cor 5:20-21
    We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21 God made Him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God.
    NIV

    If mankind could have reached God any other way, Jesus would not have had to be the sacrificial Lamb of God for the sins of mankind. He would not have had to die. As it is He is the only way to God. No other religion has a way to reconcile the sin we all know lies in our hearts to the Creator God and reconciles us to Him. No other religion is true. Jesus came back from the dead. He's alive and intercedes with the Father for those who believe in Him. He not only died but triumphed over the grave. There is ample evidence for this for those who believe in Him. First, though you have to seek Him in order to become aware of this evidence.

    Jer 29:13
    You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart.
    NIV
    Last edited by Journey; 03-25-2008 at 10:07 AM. Reason: couldn't spell triumphed, had to look it up, lol

  5. #35
    Senior Member Eileen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    6?
    Posts
    2,191

    Default

    I haven't gotten to read the link in the OP; I will read it later. I'm going to post my meditation from this year's stations of the cross (I did station 11--Jesus is nailed to the cross).


    Some notes:

    -I always talk about religion in terms of stories rather than facts because that's what I believe you CAN do... these stories likely have no or little factual basis, and fact isn't the point of religion. I don't think we should debate this particular point here, though, because it will derail the thread. HERE is a thread where you can talk about that.


    -This year, I have really started to confront my issues with atonement theology. I think it's an awful, terrible, harmful theology--one that is probably based in scripture. But sometimes scripture yields bad theology, plain and simple. It yields a variety of theologies, too, so I feel pretty okay with picking and rejecting my poisons with regard to what scripture says.


    Here are my thoughts on the "necessity" of Christ's violent death...

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Jesus is nailed to the cross.

    They whipped him, they jeered at him, they made him carry his own lethal weapon, they humiliated him, stripped him of his clothes and his dignity, and now—after all that violence—they nail him down to his cross. They drive spikes into his flesh and fasten his wrists and feet to the wood, and this is where we recognize him best. This is where he is most commonly envisioned.

    It is here where Christ, like a perfectly preserved butterfly pinned to cardboard, is scrutinized and marveled over for his exquisite beauty. The delicate effigies of his suffering, the handcrafted pendants, adorn our necks. Is this where we know him best—in his ultimate tableau of horror and humiliation, rather than in his gentle and powerful, life-giving and peg-lowering ministry? Why do we gaze on such awful, senseless violence in moments of devotion?

    Christianity is inundated with the absurd and the excessive. The foil to the terrible and needless pinning-down of our brother is the preposterously prolific grace of God. It as if we say about grace – there must be a price here, and the price is this horror. To receive boundless, free love, we must first be assaulted—crucified with Christ. When we view the crucifixion moment as a necessary sacrifice, this relationship with God necessarily becomes an abusive love, and a costly, conditional one.

    Surely this is not the love to which we aspire.

    The world is full of violence—senseless, excessive, heartbreaking violence. Sometimes it is the violence of action: hurtful jeering, schoolyard fights, domestic abuse, deep sexual violations, beatings-in and sexings-in, pistol whippings, suicide bombings and ethnic cleansings, missile launchings, civil wars, military occupations, lynchings, razings of fields, deforestation, willful thefts of opportunity, hate speech and hate crimes, lethal injections, hangings, crucifixions. Sometimes it is the violence of inaction: walking past, not giving what we have to give, letting our brothers and sisters go hungry, saying nothing, looking away, denying that those who become victims are part of us. How necessary is this violence?

    Love has no need for violence. It is the wounds we pound into each other that cry in need for love.
    ---------------------------------------------------

    Atonement theology is really a problem for me, because I really don't believe that a "good" God would require tit-for-tat like that.

    A really interesting theology (in my opinion) comes from Athanasius (3rd century). It explores why Christ had to become human and subsequently why he had to die. In this explanation, the manner of death doesn't really matter because plain old death and decay is identified as the problem that Christ was solving. But I don't have time to get into this. I am slacking off during my planning period and that's going to make for a painful night.
    INFJ

    "I can never be what I ought to be until you are what you ought to be. You can never be what you ought to be until I am what I ought to be. This is the interrelated structure of reality." -Martin Luther King, Jr.

  6. #36
    Senior Member Journey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    6
    Socionics
    INFj
    Posts
    261

    Default

    I won't debate it, but without the fact of the resurrection there is little reason for Christianity:

    1 Cor 15:17-19
    17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men.
    NIV
    Last edited by Journey; 03-25-2008 at 01:30 PM. Reason: misunderstood Eileen

  7. #37
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    FREE
    Enneagram
    594 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ne
    Posts
    42,333

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Journey View Post
    Just because you believe that Christianity is not based in fact (if I understood you) is no reason to think that someone cannot answer a thread based on the belief that Christianity is based on fact without "derailing it." Your point of view is not that prevalent.
    Who are you responding to? I didn't see Eileen say anything about derailing, so I am a little confused.

    (And actually, there are many Christian views out there beside American evangelicalism. You'd be surprised.)
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #38
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    MBTI
    intp
    Posts
    3

    Default

    Same reasons as all the other christians back then because they where just a under ground cult back then, but atfer a bit the cult got bigger and soon took rome over

  9. #39
    Senior Member Journey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    6
    Socionics
    INFj
    Posts
    261

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Who are you responding to? I didn't see Eileen say anything about derailing, so I am a little confused.

    (And actually, there are many Christian views out there beside American evangelicalism. You'd be surprised.)
    Eileen did speak of derailing the thread, you must have overlooked it. I deleted this post at the same time you posted! I misunderstood Eileen. My apologies to Eileen.

    I'm VERY aware that there are many Christian views out there. Some of them are represented in this very thread.

  10. #40
    Senior Member Eileen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    6?
    Posts
    2,191

    Default

    Sorry, guys. I just didn't want the thread to degenerate into bickering about one of my caveat lectors; I think it's an issue well worth discussing, but not in somebody else's thread on another topic.
    INFJ

    "I can never be what I ought to be until you are what you ought to be. You can never be what you ought to be until I am what I ought to be. This is the interrelated structure of reality." -Martin Luther King, Jr.

Similar Threads

  1. Why did life move to land?
    By SpankyMcFly in forum Science, Technology, and Future Tech
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: 04-09-2017, 12:48 PM
  2. Why Did We Have Become Such Tutjes? (Prudish Women)
    By Nørrsken in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 27
    Last Post: 04-24-2016, 09:44 AM
  3. Replies: 24
    Last Post: 06-14-2010, 09:31 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO