Why did Jesus have to die?

[Oberon]

It certainly looks rather recursive, doesn't it. But who can really change his worldview by a simple act of will?

 

[Totenkindly]

It certainly looks rather recursive, doesn't it. But who can really change his worldview by a simple act of will?

Quite a conundrum, huh?
I have pondered that.

We're supposed to have choice over what we believe.
But how can we choose a belief we don't believe in?
Our beliefs seem almost inevitable and determined for us.
(Unless of course we lack integrity and deny our beliefs, but that's just denial... it doesn't change what we actually believe.)

Confused yet?

*dances around ditzily*

 

[ajblaise]

I'm sorry to say, but the Jesus character died because it made for a better storyline.

 

[Oberon]

We're supposed to have choice over what we believe.

I am profoundly unconvinced of that.

Our beliefs are shaped irrevocably by our experience and our response to it, only part of which (at most) is influenced by volition.

Or so my experience tells me.

 

[Totenkindly]

I am profoundly unconvinced of that.

Well, I was more describing what the conventional wisdom was ("it is supposed that..." was my intent) rather than what should ideally be the case.

Our beliefs are shaped irrevocably by our experience and our response to it, only part of which (at most) is influenced by volition. Or so my experience tells me.

Face it.
We're so hosed.

I'm sorry to say, but the Jesus character died because it made for a better storyline.

People still love "Miracle on 34th Street" but Santa didn't have to die.

 

[murkrow]

Did Jesus ever talk about how he would be freeing us all from this judgment through his death?

I don't remember him every saying that, does he say it at the resurrection?

 

[Totenkindly]

Well, one interesting thing is that the Romans Road / 4 Spiritual Points methodology was not what Jesus preached.

He didn't really try to convince people they were going to hell as the focus of his message, which then would have demanded all the atonement discussion we're having here.

Paul's the one who tried to connect the dots to create a systematic theology for the faith, based on his understanding of the OT Law and hooking Jesus into it. Evangelical faith, Christianity throughout the centuries, obviously was profoundly impacted by Paul.

Jesus said (in a nutshell), "There's a new kingdom out there, it's a good one, and I'm inviting y'all to join -- Follow me."

 

[murkrow]

Okay, so really the reason Jesus had to die was because Jews are assholes.

 

[ajblaise]

People still love "Miracle on 34th Street" but Santa didn't have to die.

What kinda story would it be if Jesus just hopped off the cross and went home to eat a sandwich or something? The "He died for our sins" bit was probably the most significant part in the tale.

 

[Totenkindly]

Okay, so really the reason Jesus had to die was because Jews are assholes.

Well, just the religious leaders of the time (i.e., "the church leadership" of today).

There were lots of Jews who thought Jesus was pretty cool. Unfortunately, their opinions didn't count much to the leadership because they were (1) women, (2) tax collectors, (3) prostitutes, or (4) suffering psychological illness, among other things.

Pretty amazing how Jesus delighted in those who didn't do all the right things but had open and good hearts, and how he spent his criticism on the people who did all the "right stuff" and held the "right beliefs" but had critical and closed hearts.

What kinda story would it be if Jesus just hopped off the cross and went home to eat a sandwich or something? The "He died for our sins" bit was probably the most significant part in the tale.

Actually, it's the "... and then came back to life again," but that one obviously hinges on the first.

Which reminds me:
Priest: "He died for your sins."
Kurgan (laughs): "That shall be his undoing!"

(sorry, I'm in a campy mood)

 

[Oberon]

Did Jesus ever talk about how he would be freeing us all from this judgment through his death?

I don't remember him every saying that, does he say it at the resurrection?

Well, check out this passage from Luke 4.

The passage was understood to refer to the Messiah. In context, Jesus was standing up and saying "This book of Isaiah that you've worked so hard to memorize? It's about me."

 

[murkrow]

Dude, the most significant part is SOOOO when he says "Bust down this temple and I'll rebuild that shit in 3 days, chyeah!". Also the part where he trashes the market.

Basically everything in Jerusalem was pretty bad ass.

\m/

 

[reason]

If Disney had written The Bible then Jesus wouldn't have died.

 

[murkrow]

Well, check out this passage from Luke 4.

The passage was understood to refer to the Messiah. In context, Jesus was standing up and saying "This book of Isaiah that you've worked so hard to memorize? It's about me."

In the book of Isaiah it says that the Messiah will die for the sins of the world and allow us into heaven where we only have to say we're sorry?

 

[murkrow]

If Disney had written The Bible then Jesus wouldn't have died.

 

[gokartride]

In light of the mystery involved here, there is an interesting idea put forward by the Apostle Paul...actually scholars speculate that this was part of an ancient christian hymn or credo that Paul was quoting from....the idea is that Christ was exalted not because he died a horrible, bloody death (lots of people were scourged/crucified back then), but because he "did not count equality with God something to be grasped at, but emptied himself, took the form of a servant, becoming obedient even to death, death on a cross." So here the idea of becoming a servant....or even God becoming a servant...comes into play. This, some theologians say, is why Christ was exalted and "given a name above every other name"....not the blood-letting, but the "not grasping" (as in letting go)....the becoming a servant.

Really, religious jargon may be betraying us big time here.....we say "Jesus suffered and died on a cross." Fine.....yet it is more accurate to the real meaning of things to say "Jesus became a servant".....or "Jesus was obedient in mediating a new covenant out of love." This puts the whole thing in a different light. There are many aspects of the story that we have become far to comfortable with....they have become hopelessly trite. A reinvestigation is in order.

The crucifixion, in the end, may have been less about God's justice and malice being righted and more about repairing something so cosmically broken that extreme measures of love were required. Where evil was born out of extremes of pride, evil is vanquished by extremes of service and humility. In many ways what Jesus did in his life and death was to pull back a veil on reality.....on the way things are....not christian reality, or Catholic reality, or Jewish reality, or Buddist reality.....but cosmic reality. In this world view...love and concern is at the epicenter.

Whatever happened....both in Jesus' birth, miracles, and death, some seriously unexplained stuff was going on, and the eyewitnesses cannot credibly be discounted in many cases...enough to make one wonder. Even as concerns Jesus' death...we also have every reason to seriously look at the fact that this man could have (as reported) risen from the dead. That, then, would be the other half of the mystery....in giving, we receive....and that plays out in massively cosmic ways too!!

But that may be for another thread.

 

[Oberon]

In the book of Isaiah it says that the Messiah will die for the sins of the world and allow us into heaven where we only have to say we're sorry?

Don't know about the "only have to say we're sorry" thing, but the book of Isaiah definitely says that the Messiah will die for the sins of the world.

Here's one of many passages, this one from Isaiah 53.

 

[The_Liquid_Laser]

Did Jesus ever talk about how he would be freeing us all from this judgment through his death?

I don't remember him every saying that, does he say it at the resurrection?

Ever read John 3:16? Actually read John 3:14 to the end of the chapter and it tells what you are asking for.

 

[Mole]

In light of the mystery involved here, there is an interesting idea put forward by the Apostle Paul...actually scholars speculate that this was part of an ancient christian hymn or credo that Paul was quoting from....the idea is that Christ was exalted not because he died a horrible, bloody death (lots of people were scourged/crucified back then), but because he "did not count equality with God something to be grasped at, but emptied himself, took the form of a servant, becoming obedient even to death, death on a cross." So here the idea of becoming a servant....or even God becoming a servant...comes into play. This, some theologians say, is why Christ was exalted and "given a name above every other name"....not the blood-letting, but the "not grasping" (as in letting go)....the becoming a servant.

Really, religious jargon may be betraying us big time here.....we say "Jesus suffered and died on a cross." Fine.....yet it is more accurate to the real meaning of things to say "Jesus became a servant".....or "Jesus was obedient in mediating a new covenant out of love." This puts the whole thing in a different light. There are many aspects of the story that we have become far to comfortable with....they have become hopelessly trite. A reinvestigation is in order.

The crucifixion, in the end, may have been less about God's justice and malice being righted and more about repairing something so cosmically broken that extreme measures of love were required. Where evil was born out of extremes of pride, evil is vanquished by extremes of service and humility. In many ways what Jesus did in his life and death was to pull back a veil on reality.....on the way things are....not christian reality, or Catholic reality, or Jewish reality, or Buddist reality.....but cosmic reality. In this world view...love and concern is at the epicenter.

Whatever happened....both in Jesus' birth, miracles, and death, some seriously unexplained stuff was going on, and the eyewitnesses cannot credibly be discounted in many cases...enough to make one wonder. Even as concerns Jesus' death...we also have every reason to seriously look at the fact that this man could have (as reported) risen from the dead. That, then, would be the other half of the mystery....in giving, we receive....and that plays out in massively cosmic ways too!!

But that may be for another thread.

This all makes a lot of sense and it depends on the supernatural.

And the supernatural made sense when we knew so little about the natural.

We now know our place in the Cosmos. We know what the Cosmos is made of. We know where the Cosmos came from. And most importantly, we know where we came from.

And all of it is in the natural world. The supernatural is no longer needed to explain our world.

But the supernatural is still used to explain our world, for instance, there are over one billion muslims and just under one billion catholics.

And universal literacy and prosperity has only been recently achieved in the West. The rest remain illiterate and poor.

This means there are profound differences in child rearing practices.

This has profound effect on the formation of personality.

And this produces whole bands of psycho-classes across the world.

And it is plain that the supernatural meets the needs of some psycho-classes. While the supernatural is much less necessary to the new psycho-class in the literate, prosperous West.

 

[Not_Me]

Huh? Jesus Jones is dead???