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  1. #21
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    Sorry... I could not stay with it. When anything flys in the face of my experience, I quit listening. (well, unless its something new I haven't heard before and already tested) As soon as he said "God punishes" I quit. I, simply, have not found this to be true. I punish whenever I step out of His will for me. I find Him always trying to, lovingly, protect me from that.... as do most parents (creators) I might add. I may not always agree with nor want to do His will and have suffered the consequeces every time I've rebelled. When I come back to Him, He is always waiting with open arms. No... I'm not religious.. that's man's law.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by nottaprettygal View Post
    I think you may be putting your own spin onto the OP because it didn't seem hostile to me at all. She seemed confused and wanted a sense of understanding. Nothing wrong with that.
    I didn't really see any of this as hostile either. It's not hostile to disagree with someone, and the tone has been very civil, more civil than most conversations of this nature... especially compared to what would have happened on INTPc.

    The questions need to be raised by some people, because their "faith" is going to have large weaknesses in it otherwise. Some people need less evidence from others for support for their faith; there's no sense in disparaging people for wanting more explanation.

    I appreciated Liquid Laser's explanation; essentially, it is the answer to the question, "Why does God permit evil/suffering?" by saying God has chosen to pay the ultimate price for human sin, rather than just sticking us with the bag o' crap that he himself permitted. That's another valid way to look at the sacrifice of Jesus.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seanan View Post
    ...When anything flys in the face of my experience, I quit listening. (well, unless its something new I haven't heard before and already tested) As soon as he said "God punishes" I quit. I, simply, have not found this to be true. I punish whenever I step out of His will for me. I find Him always trying to, lovingly, protect me from that.... as do most parents (creators) I might add. I may not always agree with nor want to do His will and have suffered the consequeces every time I've rebelled. When I come back to Him, He is always waiting with open arms...
    That is the part I am struggling with too. The largest analogies made in the NT don't make God out to be a traffic cop and executioner, he is continually described as a parent... and having now been a parent, my attitude towards what God is like has changed as well.

    Some people are happy having faith in a book that might or might be accurate. I can't do that. I experience life and I piece together my experiences, and I cannot follow someone's idea of faith if it fails to be consistent with the Big Picture of how life really seems to work. I think a lot of people are unhappy because they keep trying to reconcile a particular view of God with a world that it cannot be reconciled with... no wonder there is such self-judgment and friction and tension.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

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  3. #23
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    Jesus died because he was considered a threat to the Roman government- quite simple- he was considered rather seditious since he was a popular leader among the problematically rebellious Jewish community, which made the Roman leaders nervous. He was executed in common manner of execution for traitors at the time!

    or we could say this

    "Jesus died for somebody's sins but not mine..." Lou Reed, Velvet Underground, Heroin
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    The questions need to be raised by some people, because their "faith" is going to have large weaknesses in it otherwise. Some people need less evidence from others for support for their faith; there's no sense in disparaging people for wanting more explanation.

    I appreciated Liquid Laser's explanation; essentially, it is the answer to the question, "Why does God permit evil/suffering?" by saying God has chosen to pay the ultimate price for human sin, rather than just sticking us with the bag o' crap that he himself permitted. That's another valid way to look at the sacrifice of Jesus.
    Why is it God who must take the blame? (I like the analogy b/w God and parents btw) Aren't we supposed to learn not to blame our parents (unless it's reasonable. i.e abuse) but learn from them of both their good points and bad points and all in b/w, so we can become better? If we just kept blaming them, we wouldn't become self-aware of our rightful mistakes. We find it easier to blame other's too and not take rightful blame, if rightfully so. So simple misunderstanding is one cause to just easily blame a person or even ourselves through guilt! It's the same as blaming God for not helping us or not listening or claiming god's now listening to punish (like a parent) b/c Hurricane Katrina is a reminder of our sins (misbehaving) or Asian Tsunami's too (bad bad children!) or any other natural event or unnatural event (We have to learn from it, God's Testing us). It used to be "God made it rain! God won't make it rain!" We now know otherwise, so why not ditch the rest? The scapegoat of Jesus dying for 'our collective sins'. Why not a new son? (WHY all males?! Males dominate society, especially during the times of "Jesus" etc). Sin was BEGUN by a FEMALE (Eve) in order to justify that it's women who must be kept under control so as not to be tempted or to tempt men into corruption (or seduction) It's largely convenient to keep it for people. That isn't to say good things haven't come from religion. But I wouldn't say it's from religion, it's from the people who've become better by learning from other's and just use religion rather like modesty ("God has made me stronger. I passed the/His Test"). If we have Free Will, wouldn't it be that through our Free Will we've become stronger w/o God pulling the strings of our "fate"? I love it when people claim not to believe in fate yet believe in religion and their God/s' 'direction' of them b/c it implies their fate is controlled by this deity, albiet to help them grow from the 'crises' in their lives.

    Wouldn't it be more likely that, by anthropromorphising this + other 'deities', humans needed the excuse that they have a Grand Parent watching out for them but that allows them to make mistakes b/c they need to make them? I recall from Noah's Arc (+ similarities in most cultural holy texts + myths) that God wiped OUT everyone due to an abundance of Sin. Wouldn't it seem likely God would remove Free Will? Wouldn't we as a more advanced technological society, who probably has destroyed more and is more 'corrupted', than other societies from the past be better off destroyed than allowed to live?

    What is 'sin'? Who/what is to be condemned? Whomever/whatever is defined by the majorities' of peoples during points in society against the minorities' around them. Just as "Jesus" was an invented minority scapegoat "against the majority of corrupted Jews" (who have paid ever since). We do it to others. If anything, the Jesus story should help other's to embrace differences (He did touched lepers, prostitutes, the outcast!). If he existed, I can imagine him hugging a homosexual not b/c this person is sick and needs his salvation but b/c this person needs his love and acceptance. We all want and need love. We're all different. We all rage against the machines of ignorance when not understood. Some enjoy being misunderstood (having been failed), I'd think most would want to be understood.

    Terms become put in place for both majority and minority when people fear the "new" thing. Gay and Fag's etymological roots are happy/carefree and 'the end of a cigrette'. Then it was derogatory. Then used for fun "That's like so gay! lolol!" It's now largely embraced by LGBT people. They made it positive for themselves, took power of the word from their oppressors. Same with other minority groups. Straight? Implies 'right' on the 'straight and narrow path'. Black/White/Yellow/Brown people? Never existed before modern times. Why would West/North Africans kidnapped and placed in other countries call themselves "Black" when they had their own names of their ethnitices? Europeans were French, English, Dutch, whathaveyou. Look at the roots of what those words were used for. Black = Bad/Evil White = Good/Purity Yellow can be happy but also SALLOW/sickly complexion. I've stepped outside the bounds of God and religion but it's to point that "God", if existening as an entity, would likely embrace all of its creation (Why create them if otherwise? EVEN LGBT!) and not condemn them. Religion correlates to all facets of ugly and beautiful society. Interconnected. Religion influences the masses and is influenced by the masses when the people choose to 'change' to now suit their needs. So, when someone says its' PEOPLE who do the condeming and twist the words of "God/s" then why isn't it thought that perhaps all the documented texts of all religons which were created BY people FOR people of their eras were distorted to suit their needs due to lack of understanding.

    It's justifying for what we, the majority, want and expect and wish for w/o a lot of care for the minority. We see this in poltics. We do this personally in our lives with our families and friends w/o a lot of care for strangers.

    People don't surface with religion when thrust out the womb, they're parents put a religion onto them. Cyclical pattern. Until one breaks away. Adopts new religion, becomes atheist or something else enitrely.

    If the modern religions didn't rush to claim territories or convert people into their religion (b/c it's the "right" one compared with the others'), we wouldn't largely be Christian or Mulsim. They wouldn't be well known. Imagine Buddhists trying to convert through mainly forceful means, we'd likely be Buddhists at this point. If no one pushed for religion, we wouldn't have it in modern times. If one can accept the Theory of Evolution and disrepute the Thoery of Creationism, they have ultimately rejected the power of their Deity as the holy texts made BY the people of the past FOR the people of the past to explain how they came to be.

    The invention of Jesus, made conscientious and pure, didn't have to die but people needed him to suit their needs, w/e they may be and for whom. Nietzsche proclaimed "God is Dead." (people's morals are dead) I'd think it's also along the lines of "God is dead within Us" (our morals are dead). We grow with the "God within us" if allowed to flourish w/o corruption/not accepting others and connect with the "Gods within other's" when we accept differences and the (conscientious souls/minds of) "Jesuses" outside whom cross our paths in life, directly or inadvertently, help us connect with our Inner God again.

    Edit: And we can become Jesus too and help others! We even have our very own local one on the forums, right? Who says he has to be the only one?!

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeliriousDisposition View Post
    Why is it God who must take the blame? (I like the analogy b/w God and parents btw) Aren't we supposed to learn not to blame our parents (unless it's reasonable. i.e abuse) but learn from them of both their good points and bad points and all in b/w, so we can become better?
    A lot to respond to and I will need to read more later.

    But I'm not blaming God. What LL is saying is that God is taking responsibility all on his own for the state the world is in. And after all, if he is truly God, and he is supremely in control of it, isn't that his right as well as his responsibility?

    He created the world to be what it is, if you believe him to be the creator. He could have made it any way he liked... but he chose THIS. He set the rules. He made people what they are. He set the parameters of our moral choices. Therefore he is responsible. (And that's not me blaming him, it's himself taking responsibility.) And so one could view Jesus in terms of this -- as God saying, "I made this, I set down the ground rules this way, and to be fair, I will take any of the bad things that happen on my own head via Jesus."

    If anything, God is choosing to accept responsibility on his own for what he has created. People don't need to blame him for anything at all. We also lose the right to bitch and blame God, to be honest... because God could say, "Look, what more can I do? I gave you free will AND I'm suffering along with you. What else could I do for you? "
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    Jesus died because he was considered a threat to the Roman government- quite simple- he was considered rather seditious since he was a popular leader among the problematically rebellious Jewish community, which made the Roman leaders nervous. He was executed in common manner of execution for traitors at the time!

    or we could say this

    "Jesus died for somebody's sins but not mine..." Lou Reed, Velvet Underground, Heroin
    And he arrived at precisely the right time for that to happen... as prophesied.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    A lot to respond to and I will need to read more later.

    But I'm not blaming God. What LL is saying is that God is taking responsibility all on his own for the state the world is in. And after all, if he is truly God, and he is supremely in control of it, isn't that his right as well as his responsibility?

    He created the world to be what it is, if you believe him to be the creator. He could have made it any way he liked... but he chose THIS. He set the rules. He made people what they are. He set the parameters of our moral choices. Therefore he is responsible. (And that's not me blaming him, it's himself taking responsibility.) And so one could view Jesus in terms of this -- as God saying, "I made this, I set down the ground rules this way, and to be fair, I will take any of the bad things that happen on my own head via Jesus."

    If anything, God is choosing to accept responsibility on his own for what he has created. People don't need to blame him for anything at all. We also lose the right to bitch and blame God, to be honest... because God could say, "Look, what more can I do? I gave you free will AND I'm suffering along with you. What else could I do for you? "
    I wasn't blaming you as I said I liked your parental analogy. I would have told you directly "Jennifer, why do you blame God?" I just wanted to run on your point to push it further that other's may learn to put blame on God and those are the people not taking responsibility for their actions. Just relying on this 'parent's' neverending responsibilty for their actions and welfare and not learning to be responsible themselves and with their actions, for themselves and against/for other's. Citing it was their parent's who made them this way, good or bad, through "tough love" or "gentle love".

  8. #28
    Senior Member wedekit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    A lot to respond to and I will need to read more later.

    But I'm not blaming God. What LL is saying is that God is taking responsibility all on his own for the state the world is in. And after all, if he is truly God, and he is supremely in control of it, isn't that his right as well as his responsibility?

    He created the world to be what it is, if you believe him to be the creator. He could have made it any way he liked... but he chose THIS. Therefore he is responsible. (And that's not me blaming him, it's himself taking responsibility.) And so one could view Jesus in terms of this -- as God saying, "I made this, I set down the ground rules this way, and to be fair, I will take any of the bad things that happen on my own head via Jesus."

    If anything, God is choosing to accept responsibility on his own for what he has created. People don't need to blame him for anything at all.
    I've never thought of it this way before. Very interesting.

    I remember asking myself this same question ("Why did Jesus have to die?") a couple of years ago. I didn't come up with anything fancy, only that if Jesus would have remained alive we wouldn't have free will. This is because we honestly would have no choice but to do what we were told by Jesus (aka God), since he (at least supposedly) had mystical proof of his identity. Instead, Jesus ended up as a divine exemplar, becoming more of an option instead of a demand. Those who walk in the footsteps of Jesus will find themselves at the gates of Heaven.

    That was my interpretation of it at least, though I am now reconsidering it. Guess I'll do a little research now...
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    Interesting what happens to theology after it's been processed through NeTi/Fi.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by nottaprettygal View Post
    I think you may be putting your own spin onto the OP because it didn't seem hostile to me at all. She seemed confused and wanted a sense of understanding. Nothing wrong with that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I didn't really see any of this as hostile either. It's not hostile to disagree with someone, and the tone has been very civil, more civil than most conversations of this nature... especially compared to what would have happened on INTPc.....
    I hope everyone will please forgive me for misunderstanding the intent and tone of the OP.

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