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  1. #11
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Honestly, I'm not very much impressed by people with a theology degree either. Their education tends to be just as biased, just in a different direction... and so I'm not sure how anyone can aim to have a handle of truth. No one steps outside their natural framework, to look at it from the outside.

    I don't think the people here are trained in anti-Christianity. There are a few strong cynics who just tend to give kneejerk reactions to these discussions, so they can be ignored. The rest are either learning or are old enough (and been part of enough religious experience) to have gone in their own directions, for valid reasons.

    ...
    You're right.

  2. #12
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by antireconciler View Post
    Hey. I have a question.

    What is this guy talking about?

    I can't make sense of it. God of love? Check. God of justice? You've lost me.

    Why is there not forgiveness of sins without punishment of sins?

    Why is it bad if Jesus is just a therapist?

    Even if you don't agree with it, maybe at least we can figure out what this guy is trying to say. What exactly is going on inside his head? How are the ideas connected together? Even if it's wrong, at least we should understand his position. Otherwise, how are we to know were we need to disconnect misconnections inside his head to make it work right?

    Or if you think he IS right, explain yourself. Please.
    Short answer:
    This is God's way of telling us that he is assuming responsibility for everything that has happened.


    Longer answer:
    Have you ever wondered what it would be like to be President? It would kinda suck in a lot of ways because no matter what you did some people would complain. And every time something went wrong you'd get the blame.

    Well this is what it's like to be God only on a much larger scale. Everyone who ever lived in the whole world dumps all of their baggage on God. "God I wanted to go on a picnic today, and you made it rain. I hate you and also I don't believe in you so there!" Actually there is a lot of worse things out there than canceled picnics. War, poverty, rape, child molestation, etc.... When people see all of the evil in the world it's natural to stop and ask, "Doesn't God care?" and "Why does God let people do all this evil stuff?" And hey they have a point. All of this evil should be punished shouldn't it?

    Well before you go too far down that path there is the other side of the coin. At some point a person realizes that they have skeletons in their own closet, and if they want bad deeds to be punished then that will include our own too. In the end we all would have quite a bit of punishment headed toward us, and that is not cool either. And here is the problem. Bad deeds should be punished, but when you add up all the cumulative damages then the whole human race is totally hosed. So how do we solve this problem? Fortunately we do not have to.

    See, God knew all this was going to happen. When you give every one free will, then sometimes people will chose to do the wrong thing. And because of this God is taking responsibility for the whole thing. Basically God is saying this:
    "Hey everyone when I gave you free will I knew that all this bad stuff was going to happen. While I don't regret giving you free will, I'd like to take responsibility for all of the bad stuff that has happened afterward. I'm taking the punishment myself. If you want me to take the punishment for you, then just fess up to your part and we'll forget the whole thing."

    So the sacrifice of Jesus is God's way of letting us know that he's not ignoring all the bad stuff that has happened in this world. He doesn't like it, but He does care about us and He is taking all the responsibility for it as long as we are willing to let Him.
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  3. #13
    Senior Member Grayscale's Avatar
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    duh, to pay for everyones sins... i imagine it went something like this:

    cashier: do you have a safeway club card?
    god: uhh... no?
    cashier: would you like to sign up fo-
    god: i'll pass, thanks
    cashier: alright, then, sir, your total comes to the eternal sins of humanity, are you paying with cash or credit?
    god: actually, i have a gift card for the crucifixion of my one and only begotten son
    cashier: oh ok... *scans giftcard* so, what does that mean anyways?
    god: eh?
    cashier: begotten
    god: how the fuck should i know
    cashier: *shrugs*

    *clerk looks at the ceiling, mildly annoyed at the sluggish receipt printer*

    cashier: thank you for shopping at safeway, mr... *looks closely at receipt* god, have a nice day
    god: it's gonna hail later, ill try

  4. #14
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grayscale View Post
    duh, to pay for everyones sins... i imagine it went something like this:

    cashier: do you have a safeway club card?
    god: uhh... no?
    cashier: would you like to sign up fo-
    god: i'll pass, thanks
    cashier: alright, then, sir, your total comes to the eternal sins of humanity, are you paying with cash or credit?
    god: actually, i have a gift card for the crucifixion of my one and only begotten son
    cashier: oh ok... *scans giftcard* so, what does that mean anyways?
    god: eh?
    cashier: begotten
    god: how the fuck should i know
    cashier: *shrugs*

    *clerk looks at the ceiling, mildly annoyed at the sluggish receipt printer*

    cashier: thank you for shopping at safeway, mr... *looks closely at receipt* god, have a nice day
    god: it's gonna hail later, ill try
    This is the only appropriate response to this thread.

    I've got an interesting question;

    If a christian is one who is certain there's a god,
    an atheist is one who is certain there's not,
    agnostics aren't sure,
    what do they call the people who don't care?
    we fukin won boys

  5. #15
    it's a nuclear device antireconciler's Avatar
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    There are some excellent responses here. I did not mean to sound closed-minded to any of these ideas. I genuinely wish to understand.

    Also, I understand that this is hardly an original topic, hardly an original idea I'm trying to wrap my mind around. But if I can understand it, well, that will be quite original in my life. I've been pitted against the idea of God as a God of Justice for just years and years. But never have I really taken the time to try to understand what it is that makes it so compelling to people. If I can't simulate it in my mind, then I have no method of talking to these people. We'd be talking different languages. You see, I feel a strong desire to understand every conceivable position, and simulate it even if it is not complete in itself, at least so I am not an alien to it and so I can see people who do hold these notions as fellow like-minded, reasonable human beings. I need to be able to communicate with them.

    Quote Originally Posted by INTJMom View Post
    [...]That video is one of a 15 week series.
    Unless people were to attend all 15 classes,
    there's no way they could get the full picture
    of one of the most complex theological questions of all time.

    You must know and understand the nature of God,
    the nature of sin, God's purpose for creating mankind, etc., etc.
    before you can understand - logically - why Jesus had to die.
    There are libraries of books that address the subject.
    An online forum can hardly do the question justice.

    Thankfully, salvation is by faith, not by logic.
    It is complex, but there's a kind of despair I think people fall into when they back away from a question and say "it's just too complex for me to explain it to you". Think you that I am an alien to complex expression? Listen, if you understand it yourself, do not be miserly with your wisdom, but share it as you were meant to. Do not have so little faith in your ability to express the truth as you understand it in a form that another could easily grasp. What's this? Think you that truth is so complex? No God who wished to share with us would create us with an inability to understand Him and share in His Mind. Truth is simple, or not at all. Yes, in the course of our discussion we may need to reign in the complexities the mind has forged, but do God's will and you cannot fail. Be patient. Be faithful. I will listen. I will strive to understand.

    I understand that salvation is not BY logic, but it is after all logical. It does make sense, and you know it. Faith must make sense, or it is not faith at all, but insanity.

    Quote Originally Posted by YourLocalJesus View Post
    [...] And nobody seems to believe that i'm actually Jesus


    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Basically, if God is holy, then anything that is unholy (i.e., sin) has to be eradicated or punished. And is he is a just God, then he has to balance the scales -- all wrong has to be punished/righted.
    Jennifer, I want to thank you for your insightful reply. I'll try to take it in pieces, since I seem to do best that way, although that's not to stray from the big picture.

    I seem to follow the general story of the history of blood sacrifice. I just can't get the whole thing off the ground. When people say that Adam an Eve sinned, I can understand this as some sort of failure on Adam and Eve's part to understand or know God or themselves, some failure in perception, but to say that Adam and Eve ACTUALLY went against, seriously and literally went against an all-powerful being FLAT OUT doesn't make any sense at all. I see perfectly no point of entry into such a position because my automaic response is:

    P1: God is all-powerful.
    P2: God is consistent.
    C: God's power is self-consistent.
    P3: Adam and Eve had power.
    C: Adam and Eve's power was consistent with God's power.
    P4: Anything that opposes x is inconsistent with x.
    C: Adam and Eve cannot oppose God.

    BUT, a lot of things are possible if we modify our discussion to what Adam and Eve THOUGHT, NOT what really happened. (My thoughts on this, here and here.) Because to say that Adam and Eve opposed God IN REALITY, is simply bogus, and I see no way around it. The premises aren't premises you can simply add or subtract. Their negations have pretty dire consequences for any thiest.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    However, yes, like you seem to be suggesting, I don't see why this changes anything at all. Why would punishing/killing Jesus -- actually an act of injustice, since Jesus was innocent -- somehow magically mean that suddenly the rest of us sinners were now seen as "clean."
    Exactly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    There's also Christus Victus (or some similar phrase), where Jesus showed God's power in overcoming death as well as his willingness and desire to forgive despite us having offended him. I personally lean more in this direction as I age, having been a parent.
    There's always that way of reading "Jesus's death". One can say that he simply didn't die at all, and that his death is only important in the context of his OVERCOMING death. Then, one can say that Jesus didn't die at all for our sins, even if he died TO our sins. Now THAT's something.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    (After all, if "hell" is separation from God because we are self-centered and not moving towards God -- the result of our sin -- then Jesus' sacrifice is a wake-up call showing, yes, God is not keeping us locked in hell, actually loves us and wants us back, and the only thing stopping a restored relationship is US.)
    I see it similarly. "Sacrifice" is a challenging word for me because I don't think love has anything to do with sacrifice in the sense of "To gain, something of equal value must be lost." There's nothing cool about giving up something you love for something else, but if you WANT to give it up, if that is your will, because of your love for something, THEN you're cool. As long as it's something you WANT, then you're not really losing anything, and if you're not really losing anything then you're not really sacrificing anything ... you're making a decision, a change of mind, but not losing, ONLY, and I emphasize this, ONLY gaining.

    Quote Originally Posted by sassafrassquatch View Post
    1. God is love and love must be expressed, the ultimate expression of love is to die for someone.
    If I have strong opinions about other things, this is one I seriously can't approach. Is what you say true? Is it? I really want to know, but I don't know the answer.

    I found your post insightful, and I thank you.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    Short answer:
    This is God's way of telling us that he is assuming responsibility for everything that has happened.

    [...] See, God knew all this was going to happen. When you give every one free will, then sometimes people will chose to do the wrong thing. And because of this God is taking responsibility for the whole thing. Basically God is saying this:
    "Hey everyone when I gave you free will I knew that all this bad stuff was going to happen. While I don't regret giving you free will, I'd like to take responsibility for all of the bad stuff that has happened afterward. I'm taking the punishment myself. If you want me to take the punishment for you, then just fess up to your part and we'll forget the whole thing."

    So the sacrifice of Jesus is God's way of letting us know that he's not ignoring all the bad stuff that has happened in this world. He doesn't like it, but He does care about us and He is taking all the responsibility for it as long as we are willing to let Him.
    Holy cow. There's a lot going on here. I think this is almost exactly the kind of thing I was asking for, but ... can't ... interface.

    I'm going to have to give this more careful consideration later, though. Thanks for now!
    ~ a n t i r e c o n c i l e r
    What is death, dies.
    What is life, lives.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nocapszy View Post
    This is the only appropriate response to this thread.

    I've got an interesting question;

    If a christian is one who is certain there's a god,
    an atheist is one who is certain there's not,
    agnostics aren't sure,
    what do they call the people who don't care?
    Evolved.

  7. #17
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    May I humbly suggest those who want to know the traditional teaching on why Jesus had to die read St. Athanasius (4th c.) On the Incarnation, which is freely available on the web Here or Here.

  8. #18
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by antireconciler View Post
    ...
    It is complex, but there's a kind of despair I think people fall into when they back away from a question and say "it's just too complex for me to explain it to you". Think you that I am an alien to complex expression? Listen, if you understand it yourself, do not be miserly with your wisdom, but share it as you were meant to. Do not have so little faith in your ability to express the truth as you understand it in a form that another could easily grasp. What's this? Think you that truth is so complex? No God who wished to share with us would create us with an inability to understand Him and share in His Mind. Truth is simple, or not at all. Yes, in the course of our discussion we may need to reign in the complexities the mind has forged, but do God's will and you cannot fail. Be patient. Be faithful. I will listen. I will strive to understand.

    I understand that salvation is not BY logic, but it is after all logical. It does make sense, and you know it. Faith must make sense, or it is not faith at all, but insanity....
    Sorry.
    Liquid Laser gave a great answer.
    Your OP assumed the guy was wrong and you wanted to disabuse him of his thinking.
    With such a hostile stance, you would never be satisfied until the entire thing was explained from beginning to end.
    And as I said, though you refuse to agree, faith is how we comprehend God, not logic.
    God did it that way on purpose "to confound the wise" as the scripture says.
    If you refuse to engage your heart in addition to your head, you will never know God.

  9. #19
    Senior Member nottaprettygal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTJMom View Post
    Your OP assumed the guy was wrong and you wanted to disabuse him of his thinking.
    With such a hostile stance, you would never be satisfied until the entire thing was explained from beginning to end.
    I think you may be putting your own spin onto the OP because it didn't seem hostile to me at all. She seemed confused and wanted a sense of understanding. Nothing wrong with that.

  10. #20
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nottaprettygal View Post
    I think you may be putting your own spin onto the OP because it didn't seem hostile to me at all. She seemed confused and wanted a sense of understanding. Nothing wrong with that.
    And perhaps you are putting your own spin on it, for certainly, it can be truly said of everyone that we all see things in a certain way, which is our own.

    Quote Originally Posted by antireconciler View Post
    ...
    Even if it's wrong, at least we should understand his position. Otherwise, how are we to know where we need to disconnect misconnections inside his head to make it work right?

    Or if you think he IS right, explain yourself. Please.

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