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  1. #151
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    I dont believe any metaphysical predestination idea about Jesus, I dont beleive he was fated to die from when he was born, anymore than anyone else is. That is to say he wasnt fatalistically destined to be sacrificed horribly.

    Most of the "explaining" of why Jesus died how he did was done after he was dead, or after he died and was ressurected and ascended if you believe that account, so there must have been a point, or many points, when he and his followers believed it could or was all playing out differently. I think so anyway.

    Would it have had the same signficance or the relationship between God and man been different had Jesus not been executed and had just lived his life, taught the message from the scriptures that he did and died an old man with grey beard in his bed? I actually dont think it would have been any different, we each owe God a death, I believe that God being incarnate and experiencing that process is/was as important in the reconciliation of God and man, as his dying horribly as he did.

    That's the important thing, and I think that its understood in Jung, and was also widespreadly understood in central European thinking (Karen Horney wrote in their diaries about a teacher she had a crush on growing up explaining a popular idea about everyone possessing a "spark" which was God in them but Jesus having more of that "spark" than anyone else) at a time.

  2. #152
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    The Sacrifice

    Why did Jesus have to die?

    Well, the Father was offended by us so, in order to forgive us, He tortured his Son to death.

    This seems silly to us but makes perfect sense in a society based on institutional slavery and child sacrifice.

    And as Jesus was the Son of the Father, the child of the father, Jesus was a sacrifice.

    This is why it is called the 'sacrifice of the mass'.

  3. #153
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
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    To become a superstar.
    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
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    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.

  4. #154
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Why did Jesus have to die?

    Well, the Father was offended by us so, in order to forgive us, He tortured his Son to death.

    This seems silly to us but makes perfect sense in a society based on institutional slavery and child sacrifice.

    And as Jesus was the Son of the Father, the child of the father, Jesus was a sacrifice.

    This is why it is called the 'sacrifice of the mass'.
    Which is curious since that rationalisation, based upon the idea of predestination, has more to do with Luther and Calvin than it does the gospels or the society you pretend to a knowledge of.

  5. #155
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Which is curious since that rationalisation, based upon the idea of predestination, has more to do with Luther and Calvin than it does the gospels or the society you pretend to a knowledge of.
    1. I have no idea how you connect what Victor wrote to predestination, Calvin, and Luther.

    2. I mean... Come on... I don't throw Catholics under the bus when Victor complains about church child abuse... Which I'm sure he's about to bring up.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  6. #156
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    1. I have no idea how you connect what Victor wrote to predestination, Calvin, and Luther.

    2. I mean... Come on... I don't throw Catholics under the bus when Victor complains about church child abuse... Which I'm sure he's about to bring up.
    I'm not being sectarian, at least not in any stupid way, they where the revitalisers of predestination of the kind you have to accept in order for what Victor wrote to be credible as an explanation.

    The alternative understanding which had currency, and was Erasmus' view contra Luther (probably contra Calvin too I dont know), I outlined, the believers who'd been in Jesus company, who wrote the bible, rationalised the events of the new testament with reference to supporting passages from the old testament. Its how they made sense of events, although I would argue, pretty much as did Erasmus, that this does not amount to the same thing as predestination as Luther affirmed because that makes God a "moral monster".

    I'm not having a go at protestantism qua protestantism but I do believe that protestantism isnt something I could personally believe following my close reading of Erasmus and Luther's discourse on free will, which to me represents a pretty good division between the reforming influenced but traditional, which is coincidentially more "modern" in outlook, in the shape of Erasmus and the more persecuting zeal and break away type of Luther. Its not something I'm being unthinking about and dont mean to tar every one who holds those thinkers (Luther and Calvin) in regard with the same brush, I've spent a lot of time reading primary sources and found it unconscienable. I hope you dont think I'm taking cheap shots. Out of respect for you I could refrain from posting but I couldnt really change my opinion on the strength of that respect alone

  7. #157
    Senior Member UniqueMixture's Avatar
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    So that the enlightenment could occur
    For all that we have done, as a civilization, as individuals, the universe is not stable, and nor is any single thing within it. Stars consume themselves, the universe itself rushes apart, and we ourselves are composed of matter in constant flux. Colonies of cells in temporary alliance, replicating and decaying and housed within, an incandescent cloud of electrical impulses. This is reality, this is self knowledge, and the perception of it will, of course, make you dizzy.

  8. #158
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    @Craic a little bird told me you are a Christian and a Creationist (is that true?). If so, what line of reasoning or what power of inspiration led you to this position?

    One of the basic beliefs is that Jesus dies to save us, that he can give us greater reward in the life to come, and how he even created the world - I'm wondering if you could build and expand upon these topics; I will start by saying Jesus could have been the master hand behind a genetic program here on Earth for souls to incarnate (that is just my theory, of course).

  9. #159
    Senior Member Winds of Thor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaptorWizard View Post
    @Craic a little bird told me you are a Christian and a Creationist (is that true?). If so, what line of reasoning or what power of inspiration led you to this position?

    One of the basic beliefs is that Jesus dies to save us, that he can give us greater reward in the life to come, and how he even created the world - I'm wondering if you could build and expand upon these topics; I will start by saying Jesus could have been the master hand behind a genetic program here on Earth for souls to incarnate (that is just my theory, of course).
    It's the gospel.
    I'm not really any big deal.
    Thanks.
    "..And the eight and final rule: If this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight."
    'Men are meant to be with women. The rest is perversion and mental illness.'

  10. #160
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    Christianity, the Enlightenment and Me

    Quote Originally Posted by UniqueMixture View Post
    So that the enlightenment could occur
    Christianity fought the Enlightenment tooth and nail, and the Enlightenment succeeded in creating the world around us in spite of Christianity.

    We can see the washup of that conflict on Central where we have irridentist catholics speaking against the Enlightenment with some venom.

    We even have protestants speaking against the Enlightenment but mostly they are just ignorant of what happened in the 17th and 18th centuries.

    And so many don't even know how the Enlightenment created the world around us.

    What would you do without me to tell you?

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