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  1. #141
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
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    To become a superstar.
    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
    ~ Elbert Hubbard

    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.

  2. #142
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    There are no such things as scientific beliefs, unless you could the beliefs of individual scientists in non-scientific matters, like religion. There is probably broader consensus for many religious assertions than for much of science, simply because more people busy themselves with religion than with science, and it takes far more work to establish or validate a scientific theory than simply to accept a religious claim.
    You are quite the zealous true believer. You won't even acknowledge that all your knowledge comes by faith.

    In order to know anything don't you have to rely on your senses and your mental faculties?

    How do you KNOW you can trust them?
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  3. #143
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    You are quite the zealous true believer. You won't even acknowledge that all your knowledge comes by faith.

    In order to know anything don't you have to rely on your senses and your mental faculties?

    How do you KNOW you can trust them?
    We know we can't trust them, for 200,000 years we believed the Sun went round the Earth. And it was only by applying evidence and reason in the Enlightenment did we discover to our surprise the Earth went round the Sun.

    And by applying evidence and reason we have discovered surprise after surprise after surprise. So you can imagine that some of think this is a surprise party, rather than the antechamber to Hell and Heaven.

  4. #144
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    You are quite the zealous true believer. You won't even acknowledge that all your knowledge comes by faith.

    In order to know anything don't you have to rely on your senses and your mental faculties?

    How do you KNOW you can trust them?
    I would be interested in knowing how your beliefs rely on your senses. My beliefs rely on internal impressions and judgments - just the "feeling" that they are right. I do look for supporting evidence, and certainly for internal consistency, but I don't expect to be able to offer objective evidence for them, or for them to be reproducible by anyone else. (This is part of how I interpret the idea of a "personal relationship with God". My relationship with God will not be like anyone else's, just as my relationship with any human would not be.)

    When I accept a scientific explanation for something, on the other hand, I do so based on evidence and observations available to anyone. In fact, reproducibility is an essential requirement for a scientific explanation. I trust it because it is reproducible, and can be used to predict future events with success. When reproducibility or predictive ability fail, I know it is not a sound explanation, and requires further investigation. This is indeed part of what makes science exciting, that plus working out answers to new questions we are just starting to explore.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  5. #145
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
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    Occupational Hazards.
    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
    ~ Elbert Hubbard

    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.

  6. #146
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    We know we can't trust them, for 200,000 years we believed the Sun went round the Earth. And it was only by applying evidence and reason in the Enlightenment did we discover to our surprise the Earth went round the Sun.

    And by applying evidence and reason we have discovered surprise after surprise after surprise. So you can imagine that some of think this is a surprise party, rather than the antechamber to Hell and Heaven.
    Well, we know you're pretty lousy when it comes to evidence. So why don't we just stick to reason right now?

    Is human reason merely the result of purposeless chemical reactions in the brain or is human reason reliant on laws of logic?



    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I would be interested in knowing how your beliefs rely on your senses. My beliefs rely on internal impressions and judgments - just the "feeling" that they are right. I do look for supporting evidence, and certainly for internal consistency, but I don't expect to be able to offer objective evidence for them, or for them to be reproducible by anyone else. (This is part of how I interpret the idea of a "personal relationship with God". My relationship with God will not be like anyone else's, just as my relationship with any human would not be.)

    When I accept a scientific explanation for something, on the other hand, I do so based on evidence and observations available to anyone. In fact, reproducibility is an essential requirement for a scientific explanation. I trust it because it is reproducible, and can be used to predict future events with success. When reproducibility or predictive ability fail, I know it is not a sound explanation, and requires further investigation. This is indeed part of what makes science exciting, that plus working out answers to new questions we are just starting to explore.
    I still don't think your understanding how fundemental I'm getting here. I'm questioning how you trust what you see, smell, touch, taste, hear, and what your brain is telling you about those things.

    Also, I do need to know where you stand, as the bold makes me unsure of whether you are atheistic, agnostic, or theist.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  7. #147
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    I still don't think your understanding how fundemental I'm getting here. I'm questioning how you trust what you see, smell, touch, taste, hear, and what your brain is telling you about those things.

    Also, I do need to know where you stand, as the bold makes me unsure of whether you are atheistic, agnostic, or theist.
    Actually, you don't, as it has nothing to do with the soundness of my position. I do not always trust the input of my senses; I am aware of too many ways in which they can be fooled. I already described the circumstances in which I do trust objective, physical evidence and conclusions logically derived from it.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  8. #148
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Actually, you don't, as it has nothing to do with the soundness of my position. I do not always trust the input of my senses; I am aware of too many ways in which they can be fooled. I already described the circumstances in which I do trust objective, physical evidence and conclusions logically derived from it.
    Ok, so you rely on logic.

    Same question to you that I asked Victor:


    Is human reason and processing of logic merely the result of purposeless chemical reactions in the brain or is human reason reliant on laws of logic?
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  9. #149
    Senior Member Stigmata's Avatar
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    To guilt-trip you into waking up early on Sunday and going to Church. Not only did Jesus die for your sins, he's apparently meant to hold it over your head for all of eternity as a means of extortion.

    What did we learn today, kids? Always keep an eye on your own finances. Why? Because Jesus left his multi-million dollar empire in the hands of terrible accountants.
    "I'm just here so I won't get fined."

  10. #150
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Ok, so you rely on logic.

    Is human reason and processing of logic merely the result of purposeless chemical reactions in the brain or is human reason reliant on laws of logic?
    I use logic, as I use many other tools. Sound logic cannot make up for inaccurate assumptions or other flawed input, though. (Garbage in - garbage out.)

    The mental capacity we call human reason is the result of brain physiology, just as our bipedalism is the result of our skeletal and muscular structure. We can exercise our ability to reason by employing principles of logic, just as we take advantage of our muscles and skeleton every time we walk around. In short, as humans we have many native abilities which we can choose to employ in different ways.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

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