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  1. #131
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    Occam s razor, many world interpretation of quantum uncertainty. Big bang and pre big bang considered as quantum events.
    All that stuff
    Got it. It's just that when you make claims that someone is wrong based on statistics it gives the impression that your position is data driven and the opposing position is not. Which is clearly not the case, as the basis of your opposition as indicated above is a preference for a different theory based on your own application of a particular principle. It's not merely that the other person is not aware of the data that you're aware of.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  2. #132
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    A lot of people have done but I wouldnt/dont.

    Did you read you read the bit about avatars in Hinduism? I know that Gods have walked the earth in physical form in Greco-Roman traditions, I dont share the view that any attempt was made to expunge that from the official record BTW, but they are unlike Jesus and couldnt be described as true God and true man, they are an entirely different species of being altogether.
    Both your statements are simply reflections of your own beliefs, how you choose to interpret the information available. This does not negate the parallels that are there, just means you choose to override them to give special status to Jesus. Nothing wrong with that on a personal level. Most of us, after all, also give special status IRL, to our family or best friends, for instance. It doesn't mean other people are any less good, or worse parents, or worse friends, they just aren't ours.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  3. #133
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Got it. It's just that when you make claims that someone is wrong based on statistics it gives the impression that your position is data driven and the opposing position is not. Which is clearly not the case, as the basis of your opposition as indicated above is a preference for a different theory based on your own application of a particular principle. It's not merely that the other person is not aware of the data that you're aware of.
    uh.. Sorry but since when are the core principles of Christianity based on any data-backed theory?
    I must have missed that breaking news about proof of the paranormal. Damn it, me and my lack of interest for TV.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  4. #134
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I know that Gods have walked the earth in physical form in Greco-Roman Elder Elf traditions, I dont share the view that any attempt was made to expunge that from the official record BTW, but they are unlike Jesusunicorns and couldnt be described as true God and true manfairy creatures, they are an entirely different species of being altogether.
    lets play the equivalents-to-point-out-how-ridiculous-you-sound game!
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  5. #135
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    uh.. Sorry but since when are the core principles of Christianity based on any data-backed theory?
    I must have missed that breaking news about proof of the paranormal. Damn it, me and my lack of interest for TV.
    I'm not saying that the core principles of Christianity are based on data. I'm saying the dispute is not based on data. Here's a helpful quote from a man who knew a thing or two about the relationship between data and theories.

    "Only faith gives us access to theological truths. The ways of God are not open to reason, for God has freely chosen to create a world and establish a way of salvation within it apart from any necessary laws that human logic or rationality can uncover."

    -William of Ockham
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  6. #136
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    "Only faith gives us access to theological truths".

    - William of Ockham.
    "Faith is believing something we know isn't true".

    - Victor of Canberra.

  7. #137
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    "where knowledge falls short, faith completes a relationship."

    -Beorn of 'Murrica
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  8. #138
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    "Only faith gives us access to theological truths. The ways of God are not open to reason, for God has freely chosen to create a world and establish a way of salvation within it apart from any necessary laws that human logic or rationality can uncover."

    -William of Ockham
    Yes. And the difference between theological truths and, say, scientific truths is the second are objective and verifiable, while the first are subjective and personal. You cannot "prove" Christianity, one way or another. One might be able to prove that a person called Jesus lived at the beginning of our Common Era and was eventually executed by the Romans, but any significance attached to that is outside the scope of objective data. You can, however, assert the truth of Christianity in your life and understanding, and no one can assail that because it is your personal belief.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  9. #139
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Yes. And the difference between theological truths and, say, scientific truths is the second are objective and verifiable, while the first are subjective and personal. You cannot "prove" Christianity, one way or another. One might be able to prove that a person called Jesus lived at the beginning of our Common Era and was eventually executed by the Romans, but any significance attached to that is outside the scope of objective data. You can, however, assert the truth of Christianity in your life and understanding, and no one can assail that because it is your personal belief.
    That's a false dichotomy. I believe there are two kinds of faith. A faith that springs from God's saving grace and is extended unto salvation and faith that springs from God's common grace and allows all people to function in the world. Ockham is referring to the former.

    I've explained many times before that all beliefs whether they are theological or scientific are founded on unprovable presuppositions. The real difference is that there's broader consensus for presuppositions that are required for science than there is for presuppositions required for religious belief. My religious beliefs account for that difference.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  10. #140
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    That's a false dichotomy. I believe there are two kinds of faith. A faith that springs from God's saving grace and is extended unto salvation and faith that springs from God's common grace and allows all people to function in the world. Ockham is referring to the former.

    I've explained many times before that all beliefs whether they are theological or scientific are founded on unprovable presuppositions. The real difference is that there's broader consensus for presuppositions that are required for science than there is for presuppositions required for religious belief. My religious beliefs account for that difference.
    There are no such things as scientific beliefs, unless you could the beliefs of individual scientists in non-scientific matters, like religion. There is probably broader consensus for many religious assertions than for much of science, simply because more people busy themselves with religion than with science, and it takes far more work to establish or validate a scientific theory than simply to accept a religious claim.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

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