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  1. #121
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giggly View Post
    Why did Jesus have to die?!?!? WHY? WHY? WHY? *exasperated*
    The Bible blames the Jews. The Bible says the Jews clamoured for the death of Jesus rather than the death of the criminal Barabas. The Bible quotes the Jews as saying, "Let his (Jesus') blood be upon us and upon our children".

    And then for almost 2,000 years the Jews were called, "Christ killers", by good Christians. Pogroms against the Jews were organised every Easter until the final pogrom or the final solution, called the Holocaust.

  2. #122
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craic View Post
    Wait, so what's your problem..I'm not quite clear. I think you need to have an honest discussion with yourself. And quit misdirecting your life's confusion (on me). Lol
    rolls eyes

    I'm not going to have a discussion where a statistically unlikely and unproven story is magically elevated as equal to rational discourse.
    think what you will. I dont even feel like oneupmanshipping you right now. just. bleh.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
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    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
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  3. #123
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    But even his own disciples abandoned him....It wasn't just the rulers and those in power.
    Also not surprising, given human nature. Many of Jesus' followers, like James and Paul, eventually faced their own violent deaths as did many early Christians.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Describing it as a fairy tale might make you feel a little bit better about your views but the reality is that there's a strong tradition there, strong heritage based upon the wisdom of generations. You've only got contemporary conceit and its ebbing away.
    We have strong traditions about Santa Claus as well. I would certainly be willing to put Jesus in the same category. Both, after all, are based on the life of a historical person.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    For me that's the difference between Christianity and any other world religion what so ever, God in every other religion is distant from human life and experience, I dont think that the various avatars in the Hindu religion experienced anything like Jesus either. God is accused by many, although its rhetorical athiests in the main, for causing or complicity in much suffering but when you think about it he experienced some of the worst possible suffering first hand and personally in the incarnation and death of Jesus. I think to a lesser extent he experiences it with every life and death in humankind but that's me, based on some pretty outlandish Jungian theories.
    Not so in the least. Gods in the Greco-Roman tradition walked the earth in physical form, and loved and even lusted just as we do. Krishna frolicked with the milkmaids, in a relationship still reenacted in ritual drama. To the extent that Jesus experienced this aspect of humanity, the Christian establishment has done its best to expunge it from the official record. As for violent death and resurrection, other forms of god have endured this, too, e.g. Osiris. Even Odin suffered on the World Tree before receiving the wisdom of the runes.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  4. #124
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    rolls eyes

    I'm not going to have a discussion where a statistically unlikely and unproven story is magically elevated as equal to rational discourse.
    think what you will. I dont even feel like oneupmanshipping you right now. just. bleh.
    Genuine question: What do statistics have to do with historical veracity and in what sense are you using the term?
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  5. #125
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    The Bible blames the Jews. The Bible says the Jews clamoured for the death of Jesus rather than the death of the criminal Barabas. The Bible quotes the Jews as saying, "Let his (Jesus') blood be upon us and upon our children".

    And then for almost 2,000 years the Jews were called, "Christ killers", by good Christians. Pogroms against the Jews were organised every Easter until the final pogrom or the final solution, called the Holocaust.
    I dont think its alright to blood slander Christians because they, alledgely, were involved in that in the past.

    Although I'm sure saying so makes me an anti-semite, I like the Merchant of Venice too, if that's any use in perpetuating that particular lie.

  6. #126
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    We have strong traditions about Santa Claus as well. I would certainly be willing to put Jesus in the same category. Both, after all, are based on the life of a historical person.
    A lot of people have done but I wouldnt/dont.

    Not so in the least. Gods in the Greco-Roman tradition walked the earth in physical form, and loved and even lusted just as we do. Krishna frolicked with the milkmaids, in a relationship still reenacted in ritual drama. To the extent that Jesus experienced this aspect of humanity, the Christian establishment has done its best to expunge it from the official record. As for violent death and resurrection, other forms of god have endured this, too, e.g. Osiris. Even Odin suffered on the World Tree before receiving the wisdom of the runes.
    Did you read you read the bit about avatars in Hinduism? I know that Gods have walked the earth in physical form in Greco-Roman traditions, I dont share the view that any attempt was made to expunge that from the official record BTW, but they are unlike Jesus and couldnt be described as true God and true man, they are an entirely different species of being altogether.

  7. #127
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    God is within us and without us, regardless of religion. We need no bridge to commune with God. The most holy men in history have communed directly with God! If we are to be like Jesus, then instead of finding a demi-god to worship, we should just open our hearts and minds to the Lord, Abba.
    There's a version of this in Jung's thinking and even a version of this in atheist form in Fromm too.

  8. #128
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    And this from someone who believes the Enlightenment of the 17th and 18th centuries is a form of light pollution.

    And what a pity Jesus wasn't enlightened enough to say even one word against institutional slavery although he was surrounded by it.

    Institutional slavey is one of world's oldest and greatest evils. Jesus could have followed the example of Spartacus (109-71BC) and opposed institutional slavery. But Jesus chose to remain silent and silence is complicity.

    So we had to wait 1,800 years to the Enlightenment for institutional slavery to be abolished for the first time in human history by the House of Commons in 1833.

    At which point we ordered the Royal Navy into the Atlantic to sink all American slave ships. And the Americans, discovering that discretion was the better part of valour, stopped transporting slaves across the Atlantic.

    But nothing daunted, today the Americans are regaling us with a propaganda film called, "Lincoln". No expense is spared to leave us with the impression that President Lincoln freed the slaves, when in fact it was the guns of the Royal Navy that put an end to the Atlantic slave trade.
    OK lets do this thing.

    Institutional slavery was challenged by Jesus, evidence that it was not.

    Institutional slavery was disappearing across most of the Roman Empire and Europe largely had abolished it under pressure from Christian campaigns and cultural underpinnings by the time it became an issue in the house of commons, made an issue incidentially there, not because of the enlightenment but because of the enduring Christian abolitionist cause which considered slavery unconscienable.

    The Royal Navy had nothing to do with domestic slavery within the US, whether additional slaves were being transported from other countries or not is a moot point when it can exist and be reproduced within the borders of a massive country like the US.

    Your historical revisionism is complete and utter bullshit.

    If anything capitalism and development eradicated slavery, it became institutionally obsolete, neither the so called enlightenment nor political liberalism had anything to do with it, they've sure as hell had little to do with its reinvention and reintroduction globally, they've done a great job of greasing the wheels for a culture in which, particularly women and children, can be bought and sold.

  9. #129
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Genuine question: What do statistics have to do with historical veracity and in what sense are you using the term?
    Occam s razor, many world interpretation of quantum uncertainty. Big bang and pre big bang considered as quantum events.
    All that stuff
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craic View Post
    Wait, so what's your problem..I'm not quite clear. I think you need to have an honest discussion with yourself. And quit misdirecting your life's confusion (on me). Lol
    i think @EcK is saying that if you can resurrect at will, you aren't actually sacrificing your life - you might be going through a very painful and unpleasant experience in doing so, but because you basically have the capacity to survive death, in essence, death is no longer fatal, so you are not actually giving up your capacity to live and walk on this earth.

    it's like jumping and taking a bullet to your chest when you have the prefect bullet proof vest. incredibly painful, but your not sacrifice your life.

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