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  1. #11
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Would any of the athiests or non-theists here possess any kind of spirituality per se or experience anything akin to what Fromm describes as an innate religious drive? What is it about some athiests in particular, although possibly some non-theists too, that they have to be proselytising as some believers?
    Everyone wants to win someone over to their way of thinking. There are a number of ways to do this, some more successful than others. Thinking alike leaves less room for uncertainty between two parties, and thinking differently leaves a level of uncertainty that can, at times, become uncomfortable. It becomes a liability, not knowing what another individual is thinking. This is one of the reasons why communication between humans is essential. We dispel unknowns, and in doing so become more and more powerful.

  2. #12
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    Everyone wants to win someone over to their way of thinking. There are a number of ways to do this, some more successful than others. Thinking alike leaves less room for uncertainty between two parties, and thinking differently leaves a level of uncertainty that can, at times, become uncomfortable. It becomes a liability, not knowing what another individual is thinking. This is one of the reasons why communication between humans is essential. We dispel unknowns, and in doing so become more and more powerful.
    Actually that's not true, I like to play devils advocate
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  3. #13
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    Actually that's not true, I like to play devils advocate
    Me too

  4. #14
    Senior Member tinker683's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I've been doing some reading on the topic of the afterlife, the full gambit of it philosophy, scientific research, psychology, metaphysical, what I've found is that there are non-theists and athiests who are prepared to contemplate the possibility of an after life, even reincarnation or cycles of rebirth but not the existence of a God. Does this seem strange to anyone or how do you account for it?
    I know many atheists who do hold to beliefs like this so this isn't strange to me. As for accounting for it...no idea, I'd have to ask them

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    At the minute I'm reading Eric Fromm's Psychoanalysis and Religion, he considers both Freud and Jung, while I think he is fair in some respects to each of them Freud comes of better, Freud's own perspective in The Future of an Illusion corresponds to Fromm's own pretty much.

    Fromm believes that religious impulses are innate, that everyone is compelled to seek both a frame of ethical orientation and an object of devotion, this he describes as a religious impulse and rationalises that a lot of what passes for ideology, even relationships or compulsions are on closer inspection "religions".


    This position he believes differs from Jung and Freud. He describes Freud as conceptualising religion, in particular monotheism, as having arose as a consequence overwhelming affect, which could only be coped with by an equally powerful affect, reason was insufficient. He describes Jung as describing religion as corresponding to devotional needs, submission to a higher power but mainly takes issue with subjectivity and objectivity of belief systems in Jung (I think he's a little unfair but all the same).
    Makes sense to me. I do have a personal ideology that I adhere too that I imagine could be easily equivocal with the devotion that some theists hold to their religion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Would any of the athiests or non-theists here possess any kind of spirituality per se or experience anything akin to what Fromm describes as an innate religious drive? What is it about some athiests in particular, although possibly some non-theists too, that they have to be proselytising as some believers?
    Not really sure I could say that I do. I do freely admit that it is possible (and in fact it would be really cool) that an afterlife or God exists but I've yet to find anything conclusive personally. As such, I don't feel any need to suppose that there is one as my life doesn't suffer from the abscene of these things.

    But one of my issues though is one of semantics: words like "God" and "Spirituality" contain a crap load of connotations and/or denotations that I'm very reluctant to use such words unless I'm absolutely certain they are the correct words to use to describe any belief or philosophy that I may or may not hold.
    "The man who is swimming against the stream knows the strength of it."
    ― Woodrow Wilson

  5. #15
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Well, like I said I made the distinction because I'm familiar with atheism is meaning more than simply not believing theism but not believing many other spiritual beliefs associated, at least in the west, with theism, such as an afterlife, cycles of rebirth or reincarnation or spiritualism its the way that the word has been used in the literature which I've reviewed. I'm not trying to make categorical statements and I've no real interest in engaging in a game of definitions or semantics.

    The discussion's pretty open to anyone who wants to add something, now, who do you reckon that includes and excludes? Got a wiki link for that?
    Ok, just wanted to point out that you're defining those terms wrong, and correct definitions are always important if you want everyone to be interpreting the question in the right way. You have a strange definition of "atheist" compared to most people, which may throw off your results.

    I think you're just asking if atheists think there's an afterlife, if we automatically reject it because we don't believe in a god?

    I can answer for myself - I think there's no reason to think that there is one, though (like god) we don't have the ability to test whether there is one or not, so it can't be ruled out. I don't think the inability to rule it out makes it a logical possibility, but then "faith" isn't supposed to be logical, so who knows.

    I doubt we'll ever have the ability to test whether there is a god or not, since practically by definition a god would always surpass our technological capabilities in every way and so be able to "hide" if he or she wished. In the unlikely event that an afterlife existed without a god with the power to "hide" it from us, it could in theory be "discovered" one day, which makes it a more interesting question to me.

    But no, I'm not spiritual and I don't believe in an afterlife given the current limited knowledge about these things. I think the idea of a god is attractive to many people for various reasons and I feel a bit of the attraction myself, but I can't believe in something for no reason other than because I want to (assuming I did want to).
    -end of thread-

  6. #16
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    Well I guess being an (ignostic) agnostic, who thinks the odds of an afterlife are very high, counts?

    The only possibilities I can think of, which don't involve an afterlife, are few in number. They involve ignoring current data (which is easy really, considering the scale of extrapolation in order to apply it), and seem more a product of human psychology than rational thought. On top of that, they involve some major guesswork on an infinite scale ("eternal oblivion over all of infinity" is the only non-afterlife possibility, after all, it just has a lot of variations on what happened before oblivion set in).

    When it reaches infinite scale, I tend to consign to ignorance more than speculate on possibilities.

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