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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post
    If every man has beliefs, and every man is a leader (even of himself), then every man is religious. The only thing that varies is what a man is devoted to. Even secular humanists hold that mankind has intrinsic value in and of itself. Their beliefs are entirely faith based, whether they admit it or not. Unfortunately, there are some institutions in which faith and intuition have been relegated to the rank of "inferior byproducts of nature"; meanwhile, rationality has become a fetishistic practice of the "intellectual elite". Even among them, the evidence suggests that rationality proceeds from faith, and that the intellect proceeds from the will. Under the house of reason lies a firm rock of faithful devotion; though the house is sometimes furnished to cover the rock up. This 'rock', I believe, is the spiritual relationship between a man and the rest of everything around him, and even further beyond that to God.

    Some of you may have a distaste for organized religion, as though it's a sort of oppressor, or as though the social aspect of it somehow exposes it as "fake". I'm not too privy of it myself, just on gut instinct. But you must admit that it is amazing how some have them have created a balance by harnessing the chaos of the spirit and channeling it into the civilized conduct of the common man. The Truth does not only include scientific fact, but also ethics and personal devotion. Therefore, a man who values the truth cannot correctly justify his own conduct by referring to the natural order which has already been established. The backbone of the Judeo-Christian tradition isn't to cover up the facts, but to remind people to love each other. Though this rule is easily dismissed as crude, it is apparent how quickly we may forget it when we forget the existence of an absolute. We may even forget it still.
    Really? It reminds people to love each other? I thought it reminded some people that they were "the chosen people" and reminded still others that while homosexuality is a hideous sin, it's okey-dokey to sell one's daughters into sexual slavery, and dammit she better perform!

    When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Really? It reminds people to love each other? I thought it reminded some people that they were "the chosen people" and reminded still others that while homosexuality is a hideous sin, it's okey-dokey to sell one's daughters into sexual slavery, and dammit she better perform!

    When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)
    If I read this correctly, much of this talks about how the girl is to be treated like a human person, especially if the owner arranges for her to marry his son - then she's a proper member of the family now. And if the owner fails to treat her properly, she may freely leave. Considering we're speaking of a time when slavery largely meant that people were to be treated brutally as mere property that could be killed and abused at will by the owner, this is quite a step up. Even in the New Testament when St. Paul tells slaves to obey their masters, he also tells masters to be just to their slaves and treat them with the respect due them as creations of God.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Care to give some examples of this?
    Lo, a day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided in your midst. And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle: the city shall be taken, houses plundered, women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be removed from the city. (Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB)

    2 Samuel 12:11
    Thus says the Lord: 'I will bring evil upon you out of your own house. I will take your wives while you live to see it, and will give them to your neighbor. He shall lie with your wives in broad daylight.

    (Deuteronomy 20:10-14)



    As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.

    (Numbers 31:7-18 NLT)



    They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings – Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba – died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho.



    Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.


    Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

    Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)


    From there Elisha went up to Bethel. While he was on his way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him. "Go up baldhead," they shouted, "go up baldhead!" The prophet turned and saw them, and he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two shebears came out of the woods and tore forty two of the children to pieces. (2 Kings 2:23-24 NAB)


    Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)


    Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)



    Yeah...God is love...sure.

  4. #44
    Reptilian Snuggletron's Avatar
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    God didn't write those

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snuggletron View Post
    God didn't write those
    Well, yes, of course.

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    then it's too easy.

  7. #47
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    No, but it's not. People of Judeo-Christian faiths say that they believe that these texts are holy words. Belief is a powerful thing - I guess if you were a sexually frustrated young man in an extremely repressive culture who believed he'd get numerous virgins at his own disposal upon death, you'd be doing some pretty crazy suicidal terrorist shit, too. It's all too easy to focus sexual frustration into physical acts of violence.

    But it applies to the Jews and Christians as well. Hideous acts of violence have been committed for centuries in the name of pleasing the Judeo-Christian god, and can we honestly blame these people when this is what the Old Testament is filled with? Apparently Jesus didn't come to destroy the old law, either, but to uphold it. So...ummm...

    I'm sure religion served a wonderful evolutionary purpose in terms of getting people under control, and also as centuries passed allowing them to become literate. However, we're reaching a point in humanity where that time is proving itself to be past, when rational atheists may behave more tolerantly and lovingly than many religious people.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Lo, a day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided in your midst. And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle: the city shall be taken, houses plundered, women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be removed from the city. (Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB)

    2 Samuel 12:11
    Thus says the Lord: 'I will bring evil upon you out of your own house. I will take your wives while you live to see it, and will give them to your neighbor. He shall lie with your wives in broad daylight.

    (Deuteronomy 20:10-14)



    As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.

    (Numbers 31:7-18 NLT)



    They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings – Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba – died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho.



    Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.


    Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

    Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)


    From there Elisha went up to Bethel. While he was on his way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him. "Go up baldhead," they shouted, "go up baldhead!" The prophet turned and saw them, and he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two shebears came out of the woods and tore forty two of the children to pieces. (2 Kings 2:23-24 NAB)


    Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)


    Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)



    Yeah...God is love...sure.
    Ok alot of these verses concern contexts involving warfare, in which the Israelites were fighting for their survival as a nation, and that often involves considerable brutality. General Sherman didn't remark that "war is hell" for no reason. And in the ancient world, warfare was a winner-take all affair. If you conquered your enemy's territory, you often had to enslave and kill many of them off - and yes this did unfortunately include children. If the children were allowed to survive, they would grow up and seek vengence upon your people. So you had to prevent that from happening so as to forbid further bloodshed descending upon your own people. So in a sense God is looking after the long-term interests of his people, which would be done out of love for them.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Apparently Jesus didn't come to destroy the old law, either, but to uphold it. So...ummm...
    The greek there for uphold is more along the lines of "complete". There's some debate on what he meant by that, because in his actions, he was usurping a lot of traditional laws of his time. Seeing that that's the case, some think he meant to convey that he was trying to "set the record straight" and "get to the real purpose" of the law. Not uphold it per se. It's lost in translation (although you'll find plenty of newer translations that get it right). His main concern was like any reformer, to champion a morality that was for people, not against them. And before you get upset again, remember, he made a lot of enemies for speaking out about a lot of things (apparently). He would agree on some things you're pointing out. It isn't the modern age that's just questioning traditions. It's all evolutionary. Jesus himself was a "modern man" compared to Moses, who lived nearly 2000 years before he did.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    And before you get upset again
    I am not the least bit upset.

    I'm changing my type to some sort of T so that the collective you can read the tone of my posts as they're actually intended.

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