Loving God?

[MerkW]

okay... but the laws of physics had to be created somehow, I mean I can't see arbitrary laws coming out of nothingness.

And where did God come from is indeed a conundrum which i do not have the answer to

Yes, but using Occam's Razor, we may deduce that it is more probable for one odd and currently inexplicable circumstance to occur (the creation of the universe), rather than that and another more illogical one (i.e. where god himself came from). Even so, the odds are weighted differently, taking into consideration the fact that though debated, there is much scientific theorizing on the existence of the universe.

Perhaps it may be hard for you to see arbitrary laws coming out of nothingness, but wouldn't it be more nonsensical for arbitrary laws to come out of a supernatural being, who in turn, had to come from somewhere?

 

[unsung truth]

how do you apply the laws of probability to something that is outside of our laws? As well as the laws of cause and effect.

And sass I didn't mean that I can't picture it, i meant that it doesn't seem to have a logical source, so stop it with the pictures and the cynicism and maybe open up your own mind before openly critiquing others.

 

[MerkW]

how do you apply the laws of probability to something that is outside of our laws?

To say it rather bluntly, that argument sucks. What if I go around saying that I have the ability to magically turn muffins into Republicans among other supernatural powers, and insist that people follow my supreme powers based off pure faith and nothing more, stating that my abilities are "outside of our laws?"

My point is, saying that God's powers are outside of our laws, and thus cannot be explained by them. is just a quick way to end the argument in your favor without any true rationality.

 

[hungrypossum]

That pic is REALLY cute how can you possibly be an ISTJ my Dads an ISTJ and he's so boring! All he does is sit in his armchair and mutter and complain about everything.

This whole post is for Sassa, so everyone else can ignore it.

If there is a god or multiple gods I would like him, her or them to speak to me and tell me which religion is correct or if people can just create their own spiritual path.

NOT AGAIN! Im trying to make my posts shorter. I said before: Jesus can pull you out of a pit but he's not gonna pull you out of an armchair. The logic is: You arguing with me I'm arguing with you none of us getting anything really going cos we're still in front of the computer.

You've only started asking questions about God 4 days ago and as far as I know, we're still online. The thing is, after Jesus left, he said he'll send his comforter, the Holy Spirit. In these new days and times, those who accept Jesus get the Holy Spirit, so they become the new temple and covenant of God. So yes, that's me too. Problem is, being humans, we defile it ever so often by doing our own things and ignoring the voice of God we can hear in our heads. Trust me, if we didn't sin, we'd be Jesus right now - able to do anything in this physical world and realm.

However, there are many powerful men and women of God around who can pray for you and help you begin a relationship with God. This is because they are VERY close to God and are good friends with him - these are people who God uses for healings to happen, etc. Jaime didn't get healed sitting in his bedroom in front of his computer. Only when he got prayed for in church! And if you want to read what he wrote about it again, here's his myspace.

MySpace.com - ...JiMeNEY...HEALED! - 21 - Male - Melbourne, Victoria - www.myspace.com/soi7der77

Cos God is like: you want me? FINE. You come to me. Not me to you. Trust me you don't really want God to go boom and land on you. If you want that kind of touch from him, you have to voluntarily want to reach out during church. Men and women in the bible in the Old Testament died after touching angels. Those who tried to see God where he manifested his glory on earth (they walked up to God's altar and tried to look in,) died. Thank goodness, nowadays, people who reach out to him and really want a touch from him, just fall to the ground unconscious. FINE. But it probably wont happen with you sitting where you are right now.

You want to know God right, since you're strangers. You've never been in a relationship with him. First you go look for someone who does know him and get them to pray for you. And not just anyone. A prayer intercessor in a good church, one that believes in the Holy Spirit. Now those people... *whistles* when they pray things really happen, they have so much faith.

The pastors at Planetshakers pray and pray all the time even when they're talking, ironing, eating, doing erm...other stuff... they do it all the time! AND you can freaking feel it when you're standing next to them! They're like radiating light! I'd be like AHHHHHHHHHHHHH! Its as if I can't hide the darkness in me standing next to them. Yet they'll just be like ^______^ How ya doing today sweetie. And I'll just be like (I'm so nervous near you you're just radiating light) mutter and go...fine... and ask them questions and stuff I have about the bible.

Trust me, if they didn't, church wouldn't be the same. There wouldn't be the whole presence of God thing at all. Again, I'll mention that Planetshakers is a very famous church - there are at least 3000 of us actively in the church at the moment. Thats how strong God's presence manifests during services. So if you really want a touch from him the way I did, go to a church where he's moving ^^

 

[unsung truth]

it doesn't end the argument in my favor because the same can be said of the laws of physics, that you cant apply a cause/effect or probability to their creation.

and once laws are established by something it doesn't seem that they can be turned back... you would fall into a paradox of the original power creating the laws versus a new power trying to alter them

So your making republicans into muffins argument is just a way to end the argument in YOUR favor

 

[hungrypossum]

i'm not lying! you can add me to msn and we can webcam ^_^ you will hear that i was given a very beautiful language. everyone's is different, and some people actually speak in actual human languages they've never learnt before ^^

 

[MerkW]

i'm not lying! you can add me to msn and we can webcam ^_^ you will hear that i was given a very beautiful language. everyone's is different, and some people actually speak in actual human languages they've never learnt before ^^

I never said that you were lying about speaking in tongues itself, but rather, possibly lying about receiving the "words" "from god." The other probable options to me seems to be either self-delusion and/or self-hypnosis (whether you are even aware of such yourself) or mental illness. Of course, you receiving the words directly from a god is certainly possible (I accept virtually anything as possible yet not necessarily at all probable), but is simply, in my opinion quite, quite improbable.

And for goodness sake, do you have some uncontrollable tic that involves you interjecting circumflexes into your posts?

 

[MerkW]

it doesn't end the argument in my favor because the same can be said of the laws of physics, that you cant apply a cause/effect or probability to their creation.

I am willing to argue that the laws of physics may be explained through the big bang itself. The particular chaotic release of energy, as well as the combination, formation, re-combination, etc. of mass had occurred in such a way that our forces of nature happen to be in their current form merely because of the chaotic manner in which our particular universe came into being. Similarly, in other hypothetical universes, laws of physics are likely to be completely different, again, viz. chaos theory.

And you never explained your reason as to why you believe god's creation to be more likely than an infinite set of universes in terms of both space and time.

 

[hungrypossum]

Yea the bible says that people will think that you're crazy when you're speaking in tongues, so don't do it in public. We don't even do it at church unless we're praying privately in a corner.

But speaking in tongues comes hand in hand with being baptized in the holy spirit. Some Christians say they never get it, YES YOU DO. You havent tried.

In the Old Testament, the Holy Spirit was only given to a select few people in every generation. Not like now, in the new days, where everyone who believes in Jesus and asks for it receives it.

In Borat the movie (documentary, rather) the actor walked into a church and got baptized in the holy spirit, he started speaking in tongues too! To this date I'm not aware Sacha Baron Cohev believes in what he received ^^ He does not call himself a Christian. But God doesnt take away any gift he ever gives.

When you're speaking in tongues, you're totally conscious, you're the one who controls your speaking. The ability comes in the fact that your tongue can move in a way that can form certain syllables.

Er what does circumflex mean.

 

[millerm277]

I will say with confidence, that we will never know how the world was created/how god came to existence. It is entirely impossible. There will always have to be something that caused the Big Bang/any other theory, and for the religous, there will always be the question of who/what created god.

However, there are many powerful men and women of God around who can pray for you and help you begin a relationship with God. This is because they are VERY close to God and are good friends with him - these are people who God uses for healings to happen, etc. Jaime didn't get healed sitting in his bedroom in front of his computer. Only when he got prayed for in church! And if you want to read what he wrote about it again, here's his myspace.

The problem is, for all those great "miracles", there are a lot of people who've been prayed for, and have prayed themselves, where nothing happened. Maybe god works in mysterious ways....or maybe some people just get lucky, and others aren't so. I vote for the s*** happens explanation.

Problem is, being humans, we defile it ever so often by doing our own things and ignoring the voice of God we can hear in our heads. Trust me, if we didn't sin, we'd be Jesus right now - able to do anything in this physical world and realm.

The only voice I hear in my head is the one telling me to do whatever the hell makes me happy, as long as it isn't hurting others.

Here's a question for you. Why are some things considered moral, and some not? Not talking about rape, murder or other things that hurt other people, but things such as drug use, homosexuality, etc.

 

[hungrypossum]

If he's God, he created himself of course! It says that the nature and essence of God is the emotion we feel of "love" itself. Love in itself, the truest form, with no fear attached to it. He's always giving. So God = a supernatural giving force we cannot understand. Hate = destructive force. Love = creates.

The problem is, for all those great "miracles", there are a lot of people who've been prayed for, and have prayed themselves, where nothing happened. Maybe god works in mysterious ways....or maybe some people just get lucky, and others aren't so. I vote for the s*** happens explanation.

Oh i tell you, this guy was born without a sense of smell! He always had to asked others if he smelled. Then after church prayer he was like IM HEALED!!!! all his homies, i included, were stunned. WHAT???? even though we'd seen it before, but this time to a friend near us. and you wonder why people in church are always jumping about as if they had no pride.

About morality: the problem is that as humans we think we're moral if we don't rape, kill, steal etc. but once we understand everything we do changes history. even a small thing, like deciding to go out or stay in at home, can change things drastically. (i.e, being morbid, i walk out the door and get hit by a bus and die) and so, deciding to say something hateful to someone, or not, changes things. I think, if you ever come to realize that we can make so much change just by the way we choose to live our life...

earlier in this thread I mentioned we dont realize even things like insulting another, putting someone down, calling them stupid, can create disasters. i wrote this article (i was an intern with The New Paper Singapore): an interview I had with a father whose daughter committed suicide due to bullying in school.
DRIVEN TO DEATH - SEPT 26, 2005

 

[miss fortune]

I think that the argument that STs can't beleive in some sort of diety is absolute shit I've realized through experience alone that there's something out there that's more important than me Not necissarily the Christian God or anything though

I'll admit that I've had some sort of odd come up with your religion based on personal experiences approach- which leads me to have a strong beleif in karma and luck and some pretty strong superstitions But it makes complete and total sense to me! And I think that's pretty much what the idea of God is about- making a person feel at peace with thier world and understand it better- whatever this God thing is seems to be rather universal, in that it's good and such, and I personally don't see what the big deal is as to HOW a person beleives in thier God/dess

I guess to sum it up best I'll give a quote from Dogma!

"His only real beef with mankind is the shit that gets carried out in His name. Wars. Bigotry. Televangelism. The big one though, is the factioning of the religions. He said, 'Mankind got it all wrong by takin' a good idea and building a belief structure out of it.' "

 

[hungrypossum]

The problem is, for all those great "miracles", there are a lot of people who've been prayed for, and have prayed themselves, where nothing happened. Maybe god works in mysterious ways....or maybe some people just get lucky, and others aren't so. I vote for the s*** happens explanation.

Yea Jaime said he tried to get prayed for 3 times! On the third time all he could think about was faith, and then it happened. The people praying as I said are pastors who pray 24/7, they got someee relationship with God man. They literally shine the light. I can almost feel static from them.

 

[millerm277]

Oh i tell you, this guy was born without a sense of smell! He always had to asked others if he smelled. Then after church prayer he was like IM HEALED!!!! all his homies, i included, were stunned. WHAT???? even though we'd seen it before, but this time to a friend near us. and you wonder why people in church are always jumping about as if they had no pride.

That's nice, however...I've seen it work the other way as well. My friends father (who is religous), was working out in the yard one day, when all of a sudden, he collapsed, and when he woke up, he was paralyzed from the waist down. He can sort of walk with a cane now, but he has a long way to go. The odd part is that there was no real cause for it (such as a stroke or the like).

About morality: the problem is that as humans we think we're moral if we don't rape, kill, steal etc. but once we understand everything we do changes history.even a small thing, like deciding to go out or stay in at home, can change things drastically. (i.e, being morbid, i walk out the door and get hit by a bus and die) and so, deciding to say something hateful to someone, or not, changes things. I think, if you ever come to realize that we can make so much change just by the way we choose to live our life...

That's true, but that's not exactly what I was talking about. Some examples of what I meant:

-Why is it wrong to have sex with someone you aren't in love with? If you aren't in love with them, it's just physical enjoyment, not much different from the other activities you enjoy. (Assuming both parties are on the same page here, not the guy saying that he loves her and ignoring her the next day).

-Why is it wrong to use drugs? If I want to alter my mindset temporarily, how is that a problem? (Ex: Marijuana). If I want to use something addictive that could possibly kill me, it is dumb, but why is it immoral? (Ex: Cocaine).

On another note, in my opinion, it is quite possible for someone to lead an "immoral" life, and yet have a positive effect on the world.

earlier in this thread I mentioned we dont realize even things like insulting another, putting someone down, calling them stupid, can create disasters.

I agree, although I wasn't referring to any of those things.


To get back on topic, here's a statement from Epicurus which I find to represent some of my thoughts well.

“Is God both willing and able to prevent evil? Whence, then, comes evil?
Is he willing but unable to prevent evil? Then he is feeble.
Is he able but unwilling to prevent evil? Then he is malevolent.
Is he neither able nor willing to prevent evil? Then why call him “God”?”

 

[hungrypossum]

-Why is it wrong to have sex with someone you aren't in love with? If you aren't in love with them, it's just physical enjoyment, not much different from the other activities you enjoy. (Assuming both parties are on the same page here, not the guy saying that he loves her and ignoring her the next day).

My half sister was born from such an experience. Let's not talk about the nights she cried because she saw the unequal treatment my father gave her compared to me. I was 6 when this happened: she was sick, but my father said he was too busy to drive her to the doctor. My mother has spent years in tears over the fact my father can never love my half sister. This was why, when I told my father I had become a Christian last year, (he disapproves of it) he said "its possible to love air when you say you love God," I said "how? You find it hard enough to even love a human being". This happened till she got married and moved out. Till today they do not even TALK during family reunions. My father ignores her.

-Why is it wrong to use drugs? If I want to alter my mindset temporarily, how is that a problem? (Ex: Marijuana). If I want to use something addictive that could possibly kill me, it is dumb, but why is it immoral? (Ex: Cocaine).

I have explained SOOO many times in this thread that everything God says in the bible is to protect us. For instance, God ordered Adam to make himself a garment of animal skin after he saw that he was naked, cos Adam was using leaves to cover himself and his wife! Back then, Adam wasn't smart enough to see the logic behind it. Till today, we cannot see the logic behind the things we do cause we enjoy doing it. Jesus didn't say we couldnt drink, he turned water into wine and this wine was used to celebrate at a wedding banquet.

The bible says do not abuse the body given to you. I cannot find a bible verse that says Thou must not do drugs.

About sex: here is the verse for you.

"Drink water from your own cistern, running water from your own well. Should your springs overflow in the streets, your streams of water in public squares? Let them be yours alone, never to be shared with strangers. May your fountain be blessed, and may you rejoice in the wife of your youth. A loving doe, a graceful deer - may her breasts satisfy you always, may you ever be captivated by her love."

If you love that person and want to have sex with them, what God says is that get married first and stick with that one person. We cannot see our future, but if you do believe the bible, you'll believe that his advice is good. God made sex pleasurable to us as a gift, but he wants us to honour and respect ourselves and others.

 

[Rhadamanthus]

The bible says do not abuse the body given to you.

What's the bible's opinion on fast food? Judging by that "do not abuseth thy body" thing, God must really hate North America -- it's got to be one big melting pot of sin thanks to fast food and the fact that people seem to think that ordering a diet soda will be a healthy counter to all the Big Macs they're about to eat.

I'm all for fast food, though, I'm just saying.

"His only real beef with mankind is the shit that gets carried out in His name. Wars. Bigotry. Televangelism. The big one though, is the factioning of the religions. He said, 'Mankind got it all wrong by takin' a good idea and building a belief structure out of it.' "

I like this. Dogma was a decent movie.

 

[hungrypossum]

There's no bible verse about overeating, but King Solomon wrote: "Blessed are you, O land, when your king is the son of nobles, and your princes feast at the proper time—for strength and not for drunkenness!" Ecclesiastes 10:17

its easy to misunderstand that God looks at our outward appearance. Well, if he didnt like the way we looked he wouldnt have made us look that way. He doesnt consider one human more beautiful than the other. If you're good looking, cool, praise God. Other humans may be attracted to us more, but to God we're all the same. Our physical bodies are temporary, kind of like tents. The hymn goes "Jesus, lover of my soul", not Jesus, lover of my looks.

Everything we do has cause and effect. If I do not clean my room, it will become really dusty and gross. If I decide not to bathe, I will be smelly and unclean. If I eat too much, I could become fat. Even if I don't become fat, it's bad for my health.

Wanting too much of something can be defined as lust: "to have a yearning or desire; have a strong or excessive craving". The problem is that when we have little self control over something seemingly harmless like food, it can result to little self control over other things too, especially bigger physical cravings.

 

[miss fortune]

I don't get why we'd have to go with the Bible though- basic natural consequences prove that immoderation is a bad idea

cause---> effect

basic principle of just about anything- not just Christianity

 

[hungrypossum]

yes there is cause and effect to everything. to Everything. so when we sin there is effect too. seen or unseen by us. ^_^

 

[miss fortune]

but why are you calling it sin? isn't God a concept above just the Christian God? I realize that immoderation is a bad idea, but I am not a Christian