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Thread: Loving God?

  1. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    Sass, it would appear Kiddo's saying (and I agree) that "by their fruits shall ye recognize them". So just step back and see, look at the results of their beliefs, what behaviour they 'spawn', and you'll probably find it's pretty easy to tell the people who've left the path...
    You're assuming that God is good and wants us to be kind and loving. How do I know that's what he wants? I've never spoken to God so I have now way of knowing that you're right. As I've said before, when I look at the state of things I don't see evidence of a god who is kind and loving as I understand the words.

    To quote Gandalf (heheh): "to break a thing in order to understand it is to leave the path of wisdom"
    More Intuitive bigotry. Wisdom is not for the Sensor, he is a Philistine.

    If I want to understand something I'll take it apart, examine the pieces, see how they work together and reassemble it.

    Fuck this bullshit. Why does your god only speak in ways that appeal to Intuitives and Feelers? I told you before, I need things to be tangible, concrete, simple. I don't want these fucking riddles. If there is a god I want to know what the fuck is going on and what his plan is.

    IMO the ones who are most vocal about what people should believe and think and how they should behave... well, they're putting their energy into the wrong thing. The ones who are pretty quiet and subtle about their faith and only talk about it when asked, in a Q&A format rather than proselytizing; the people who are easy to get along with, accepting and non-judgemental, helpful (but not interfering/busybodying - they're not doing it for themselves, see?), peaceful, joyful, humble and gentle - well, those will be the ones you can learn from. The ones who teach without even knowing they're giving a lesson. They're putting their energy into the right thing: doing their best to ensure that they behave right.
    More assumptions. Those people are peaceful, happy and kind so the must be right. That doesn't prove anything.

    If there is a god and he has anything to say to me I want him to come down here physically so everyone can see him. I want to be sure I'm not experiencing a delusion or some kind of brain thing. I want him to speak to me audibly in plain English.

    People like me are the ones who read their religious texts literally. It's the word of God right in there hands. They can read it and know what God wants for them. But they're not allowed to do that. The bible is meant to be taken allegorically and read in very Intuitive ways. Their religion isn't the one true path. Nothing is certain and everything is open to interpretation.

    All very disconcerting to people like me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    I can see you perspective. You need some tangible benefits to spirituality.
    No, no, no. Not tangible benefits. I need tangible proof that God is even real, I need a tangible, concrete, simple explanation, straight from God himself, about what is going on and what he's doing.

    1. It is proven that people who have spirituality on average have better physical and mental health than those who don't.
    Dealing with reality without an imaginary friend is tough. It's called being and adult.

    2. Spirituality is a socializing agent, which means it brings people together and gets them to work in a way that is ideal for cooperation.
    Religion? Cooperate?

    3, People with spirituality can better cope with stressful and traumatic experiences.
    "Plane crashes. 127 dead, 1 survivor." It's a miracle.
    "Women brutally raped and mutilated in Darfur." It's ok, God has a plan.

    Fuck that shit.

    4. Spiritualities provide a set of values, by which people can base their moral and ethical beliefs.
    Like how people believe it's morally wrong to be gay because of their values?

    There is nothing wrong with picking a spirituality just so you can enjoy the benefits. As I said, it doesn't matter what you believe, only how you practice those beliefs.
    You still haven't provided me with any proof that any of this is true. This is all just your opinion. Everyone has an opinion. It proves nothing. How do I know you're right?

  2. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ender View Post
    If you live your life always holding back to what you think are the limits, you're limiting your true potential. Only once you pass the breaking point will you ever be able to truly say you're doing everything as good as you can, since you now know your true limits.
    You're saying that to an ENTP, limit pusher extraordinaire?

    No, I meant breaking things beyond repair or more, destroying them. I think some of the more aggressively Evangelical/Fundamentalist types of people sorta study the Bible to death, and thereby sorta lose sight of the whole point of learning all that stuff by failing to actually act it out in their own lives, putting emphasis instead on persuading others to. It just gives me an image of 'breaking' the faith or philosophy in their quest to understand and then spread it.



    Sass... I think you've misunderstood me pretty much completely... sorry. I'm a bit baffled about how you managed to extract a meaning of 'intuitive bigotry' and saying sensors can't be wise from what I said... it was so far from my intention that I've no idea how any possibility of it being taken that way crept in... and I wasn't saying that if people are happy therefore they're right, I was saying more that if a person is genuinely happy and makes others happy including you, and does no harm but much good, without being a super annoying goodie-two-shoes, then they must be doing something right internally in order for it to result in that behaviour. I'm also a bit taken aback by the strength of your objection to that.

    It sorta seems to me like you miss the point of MBTI... I don't see Ne as my dominant function as a reason to demand that everything in the world and universe come onto an intuitive plane for my convenience... I see it as a reason to develop my non-preferred functions and become more balanced, so that I can adapt to see the different aspects of the universe, appreciate and operate eventually on all the levels to some degree.

    I've recently realized that a basic level of mechanics would be a useful thing for me to grasp and acquire, but I know this can't be done through Ne alone, and that I have to grapple with Sensate functions in order to do this. So that's what I'm trying to do. I'm not standing over a pile of car parts with my nose in the air, demanding that they perform a song and dance routine that instantly enables me to grasp the Tao of Mechanics and therefore not have to do any study or sensory interaction with the cars in order to be able to fix anything that goes wrong, instantly, with the power of my intuitive perception. I'm acknowledging that my difficulty with mechanics is due to my own limitations and weaknesses.

    It seems like you're sorta being a sensor bigot, like anything that needs to be understood intuitively is therefore not valid and stupid and you won't give it any credit until it alters itself to your preferences... sorry that's just not how I've ever seen reality... it's my job to step up to the mark and raise myself to the things I can't as yet understand, so that I can one day. It's not everything else's job to lower itself to accommodate my current limitations.
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  3. #223

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    I find your take on homosexuals to be exceedingly primitive and less about your "religious" personality than a clear attempt to use religion to disguise bigotry.
    I grew up in a Mandarin speaking family and we never had philosophical discussions, I must say that I spoke in the most simplistic manner all the time! My mother never went to school, I simplified everything so my parents would understand the point I'm trying to make. It was difficult to explain to Mum the "North-South flow" media hypothesis, but I did it in the end by drawing 2 rivers of running water across the globe! Sure it is primitive, but it works for universality. The prime minister of my country is a very educated and well esteemed man, yet all his examples to the nation consists of little stories. Why? So that the average housewife in my country would understand. Till you told me that, I unwittingly have been playing along to such a system, (I have lived in Asia 19 years) to which I'm glad I've just woken up and discovered something new about myself! In fact, it took me a while to make this post because I had spent so much time here at wonder of what "primitive" meant! And interestingly enough, this must be why other Asians around me are usually telling stories rather than using crisp, concrete words with great meaning

    If you have read everything I said, then perhaps you'll find that what I wrote will not make sense literally, but metaphorically. Indeed, I write very simplistically and with visual examples all the time, I do not know how to do so otherwise. (thankfully I got over media research papers) Also, I did not understand the word bigotry till I looked it up 5 mins ago.

    and since I've come to know this word means "stubborn and incomplete intolerance of any belief" and I assume this refers to either me or you mean Christians. In reply, neither I not Christians are God, we are constantly making the effort to be a follower of Jesus. So everyone of us would be at different levels with our relationship with him. So everyone else can point at a Christian and say OMG YOU SINNED! YOU're CONDEMNED! But God always forgives, even if we too, turn our backs on him.

    Also, if you really did believe in something, you would not believe in something thats the opposite of what you believe in. While I used to watch yaoi for instance, I stopped it because of my belief that it is not honourable to this wonderful human body God created for us. So when I do find myself struggling with such, I try to see these people as children. And it always make me stop....and feel really sad.

  4. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    It seems like you're sorta being a sensor bigot
    Hey, if your god won't speak to me on my level that's his problem, not mine. He's the infinite being, not me.

  5. #225

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    I want to answer you SO bad Sassa. You know I WANNA!
    I've made enough long rambling posts as it is already. I WANT to email or PM you.

  6. #226

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    Quote Originally Posted by sassafrassquatch View Post
    Hey, if your god won't speak to me on my level that's his problem, not mine. He's the infinite being, not me.
    You have the potential to be greater... the level that you claim to be at is not what you can be, maybe if you pursued expanding your intuition or thinking about these subjects from a different perspective you may realize what we mean.

    Of course I don't claim that we are right in any concrete, tangible manner, it's more of a stringing together of philosophies and emotions; yet philosophies and emotions are a derivative of the tangible so there must be some truth in them


    btw substitute i really liked your post about learning from the example of those who put their energy into the right place... i like to think of myself as one of those people (most of the time), yet I dunno how many people notice my subtle application of energy, but the ones who have noticed have sorta tried to push me to talk more/be more open (especially my teachers)
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    "I have learned silence from the talkative, toleration from the intolerant, and kindness from the unkind; yet, strange, I am ungrateful to those teachers. " - Khalil Gibran

  7. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by hungrypossum View Post
    and since I've come to know this word means "stubborn and incomplete intolerance of any belief" and I assume this refers to either me or you mean Christians. In reply, neither I not Christians are God, we are constantly making the effort to be a follower of Jesus. So everyone of us would be at different levels with our relationship with him. So everyone else can point at a Christian and say OMG YOU SINNED! YOU're CONDEMNED! But God always forgives, even if we too, turn our backs on him.
    A bigot is a prejudiced person who is intolerant of opinions, lifestyles, or identities differing from his or her own. Night was suggesting that you have a negative attitude towards all homosexuals and you use your religious beliefs to hide that fact.

    I don't know whether or not that is true, but you have made it clear that you view homosexuals as incapable of of loving one another the same way heterosexuals do and you have suggested that it is a corruption of the body to be a homosexual. And now it seems that you are suggesting homosexuals are children deserving of pity. These are all views which would be considered crude by most educated Westerners.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  8. #228
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    Quote Originally Posted by unsung truth View Post
    You have the potential to be greater... the level that you claim to be at is not what you can be, maybe if you pursued expanding your intuition or thinking about these subjects from a different perspective you may realize what we mean.

    Of course I don't claim that we are right in any concrete, tangible manner, it's more of a stringing together of philosophies and emotions; yet philosophies and emotions are a derivative of the tangible so there must be some truth in them
    Holy Mother Mary's virgin asshole...

    Why does it have to be such a big fucking mystery?

    I really don't see why this has to be so difficult.

    God could just pop in, say, "Hey, check it out, I'm real. I've written a short essay detailing my purposes wrt life, the universe and everything. If you have any questions, here's my cell number. Later, peeps."

    But no. It has to be this big mystery with god and his believers whispering sweet nothings to each other. Why won't god speak to skeptics? I've asked over and over again but no one will give me anything resembling an answer.

  9. #229

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    fatal flaws in that logic: God created universe under laws of physics, hence it would break the laws for him to just pop in front of you...that would be pretty damn hypocritical



    i guess for me, the biggest thing that has told me that there is a loving creator is my own existence, I have the ability to change my life, take things from a positive or a negative perception, and get incredible insights into certain topics, especially philosophical questions. Those "ah ha!" moments when everything has been so eloquently solved out in an abstract manner and when all the dots connect, I get overwhelming joy, thats just one of the examples as to why i believe.

    I dunno if that helps
    INFJ, 2w1

    "I have learned silence from the talkative, toleration from the intolerant, and kindness from the unkind; yet, strange, I am ungrateful to those teachers. " - Khalil Gibran

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    Tian xiz shou you de ren dou gai si!

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