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Thread: Loving God?

  1. #121

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    It is not argumentum ad populum, I'm saying you shouldn't disregard these beliefs so quickly considering that others believe in them for some reason.

    I'm not denying the existence of those Gods (of course you blatantly are), I don't claim to know who/what God is or if there are many Gods; people chose those gods to represent different aspects of their lives and it aided them in promoting society and achieving a stable life full of purpose, and love. Now who actually lived a good life depends on the individual, as is the case now.

    The end of consciousness meaning that when we die we simply cease to exist, there is no afterlife, no continuation in different forms, no God, we just die. And I'm saying that this argument can be made just as absurd as you are making religion and an afterlife, because we don't know what happens when we die.

    Now stop trying to argue on tangents and corner cases and tell me if the idea of a loving god makes sense, if doesn't then you are entitled to your opinion, but I don't think my efforts should be wasted if you are not going to take this under serious consideration.
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  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by hungrypossum View Post
    Disobedience from God is so easy. If we hear him tell us to do something, but we don't do it, there's an eternal rippling effect from it. Just consider it, its interesting. Lets say I was supposed to study today, and I know I was supposed to because the bible preaches diligence, but I play World of Warcraft. The next day, the teacher gives us a surprise test and I fail it. That is why just one simple action, like taking a fruit from a tree can result in so much chaos. Yet again, we were given a choice whether to or not. Hence, I have come to believe and trust God and TRY to obey him at all times.
    I think the problem here is that, while the RL scenario you have set up is plausible, you have no proof that higher spiritual reality actually works that way. There's no true connection that can be articulated.

    Put another way: No one argues that actions have consequences, that's obvious. But you're not showing why certain actions have the particular spiritual consequences YOU insist they do. You've chosen to believe it because you want to, and because it seems the most real option to you. But you haven't given any sort of connection that could convince people that your view is one they should also hold.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hirsch63 View Post
    "...Why does God need a starship?..." - James T. Kirk
    Because when you're 500 million light years away from civilization in every direction, sometimes you still need to use the bathroom?

    Quote Originally Posted by hungrypossum View Post
    As for the "those in religion have to pretend to be nice", well YES! I have to make a conscious effort, all the time to be nice. My natural instinct is to want to swear, kill and punch. I was born to be nasty.
    This is another "assumption" on the part of Christianity -- that man is inherently evil. Either that, or a matter of defining "evil" in a way that supports the a priori (i.e., assumed) stance.

    All we know is that babies are born with an instinct for survival and gratification. This survival instinct is necessarily centered on the self -- if we don't protect and preserve the self as our initial motivation, if we try to give our non-existent resources to others -- we'd die. Conventional Christian theology seems to label this as selfishness = self-centeredness = evil, then builds a theology on it.

    But then, since the self-preservation instinct is NECESSARY for survival, and God gave us the instinct, then he created evil. Makes no sense.

    As they get older, people are taught (or NOT taught) how to reign in their impulses and think in long-term gratification, as well preserving the rights and interests of others. What happens is that one's sense of "self" expands to include others within its protective embrace, hopefully. This is the community sense Christianity encourages. And if someone actively disrupts community by focusing on the self first and foremost, this is "sin" (i.e., separation from God and others, clinging to oneself).

    Still, this active sin is a far cry from original sin, man is evil, man is a beast, etc. Those concepts do not seem to gel cleanly with experience.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #123
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    God, Jesus, afterlife? Remind me what century we live in.
    Ah yes... remember, these sorts of things become outmoded from time to time, and the cosmos changes to accomodate our latest theory...

  4. #124

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    i'm just talking, talking and talking.... and talking and im tired of talking

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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Ah yes... remember, these sorts of things become outmoded from time to time, and the cosmos changes to accomodate our latest theory...
    Good, at least SOMETHING is consistent!
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I think the problem here is that, while the RL scenario you have set up is plausible, you have no proof that higher spiritual reality actually works that way. There's no true connection that can be articulated.

    Put another way: No one argues that actions have consequences, that's obvious. But you're not showing why certain actions have the particular spiritual consequences YOU insist they do. You've chosen to believe it because you want to, and because it seems the most real option to you. But you haven't given any sort of connection that could convince people that your view is one they should also hold.
    *nod* What I find especially annoying is this "God is so obvious in this, this and this" attitude, and then I'm automatically considered to be denying seeing such, when I don't see it in the first place.
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    "Hokie religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Varelse View Post
    *nod* What I find especially annoying is this "God is so obvious in this, this and this" attitude, and then I'm automatically considered to be denying seeing such, when I don't see it in the first place.
    Yes, it's sort of like begging the question.

    And it's fine if one wants to approach it that way... but both sides need to understand that they're approaching things very differently (one explaining what they've decided to believe, the other trying to SUPPORT a particular belief), and constructive dialog isn't very likely if they are approaching it from opposite ends.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Yes, it's sort of like begging the question.

    And it's fine if one wants to approach it that way... but both sides need to understand that they're approaching things very differently (one explaining what they've decided to believe, the other trying to SUPPORT a particular belief), and constructive dialog isn't very likely if they are approaching it from opposite ends.
    This is my principal complaint with evangelicals.

    For my dime, reconciling one's spirituality is a wholly intimate experience and is not subject to the bylaws of a single religious theatre.

    Some of the most brilliant theistic minds I've ever encountered were so because they remained open to possibility - they didn't stymie their consciousness behind a singular motif and/or institutional genre, but instead chose to braid ideological kernels from various disciplines into a personalized fusion. This "complementary" scheme seems the most complete outlook to me.

    I'd wager this approach is not for everyone; it doesn't have to be. In the end, I've little real issue with exclusive religious schools - so long as they remain thoughtful towards diversity.

    Ultimately, I find the sincerest comittment one should endeavor is the earnest desire to remain humble in judgment towards others.

  10. #130
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    The question in the OP is sorta built on assumptions that depend on a traditional interpretation of Biblical Christianity.

    Since I don't believe that God would 'damn me in an instant' or at all, that doesn't factor into the equation for me.

    Also, the 'resting place' of my soul is something that really doesn't factor into my relationship with God, from my POV. IOW, I neither believe nor disbelieve in the whole 'heaven and hell' thing as it's traditionally interpreted. Wanting a pleasant afterlife is just nowhere in the equation either, of how or why I love God. I literally never even think about it. I don't need to - there are plenty of reasons to love God that have to do with right here and now, this life. I don't need to stretch into the unknowable or mythical, to find reasons to love God.

    For me, it's simply been a case of spontaneous love, that I've felt and known and been unable to deny since I was very young (and not raised in a religious family). And it's something that's grown stronger as years have passed, regardless of what's happened in my life. To me it seems a natural consequence of knowing God... to know him is to love him. At least, the God that I know and believe in. He's someone that you can't not love, once you get to know him. The natural response for me, the more I come to understand and the deeper my relationship becomes, is stronger and greater love - it's not something I 'do', I don't decide to love him and just do it because I think I ought to, like jumping through a hoop. It's real, genuine, passionate, heart-burning, gut-wrenching, unconditional love and it comes naturally.

    St Francis of Assisi is often described as 'a man in love with God'. I relate to that because it's how I've always felt. Just like when you're in love with a person, all that matters is being with them and being the best you can be together so you can please them and make each other happy, and just thinking of them is bliss; being with them is ecstacy. You don't need a reason - your lover doesn't promise you an afterlife or to solve your problems or whatever, they don't have to. Just being who they are, they cause a response in you that's all-encompassing and can motivate you to do extraordinary things; they bring out the best in you and you love them not just for themselves, but because of who they enable you to be. It's just the same with me and God. Through him, in him, because of him, in response to him, I am and can be extraordinary.

    As for what your brain is 'plagued with', I don't see the connection between that and what God 'wishes'.
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