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  1. #11

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    I dont think that Nietzsche's philosophising corresponds to existentialism too well, I know he's been described as existentialist but he wouldnt have known the word or very possibly embraced it (although Camus rejected it too I think), I'm unsure about some of Nietzsche's outlook too because he was off his rocker when he came up with some of his ideas and that's a fact, it can be amusing to speculate when exactly he was on the basis of his theorising.

    Its clear he felt that life was meaningless and tragic and only had whatever meaning individuals created or attributed themselves, its also clear that he rejected humbling and quietescent thinking, or what he perceived as such, and thought that both of these perspectives where grasped by superior men, his ubermensch, but is his theory that different from Confucious' repeated maxims or sayings about "the superior man thinks/acts" or "the way of the superior man is...", every system of thought will assert its own superiority in some sense, otherwise, if it supposes one is as good as the next, it is nihilism.

    There's a great deal of what goes under the heading of existentialism which I think is bogus, its later day sophistry by pseduo-intellectuals and egotists, and it goes double for much of the wordy pretenders which followed, like structuralism, post-structuralism and post-modernism. I reached that conclusion by comparisons between Orwell and Satre and their writings, I gradually came to the conclusion that Satre was despicable and typified a lot of what made Orwell (and I think its a perrenial anglo-saxon trait in many ways, even if I find that strange for other reasons to do with scholasticism vs. the reformation) sceptical or hostile towards intellectuals.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I dont think that Nietzsche's philosophising corresponds to existentialism too well...
    False.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    ...I know he's been described as existentialist but he wouldnt have known the word or very possibly embraced it (although Camus rejected it too I think)...
    Well, as has been noted, the term had not yet been coined, but that means nothing about whether or not the term would be fitting (for him, or Kierkegaard [who also couldn't have known of it]).

    Furthermore, most thinkers generally considered existentialists have rejected the label...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    ...I'm unsure about some of Nietzsche's outlook too because he was off his rocker when he came up with some of his ideas and that's a fact...
    Bolded is false.

    I'm not disputing that something may have been wrong with him, but nobody, including yourself, knows exactly what was going on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    ...it can be amusing to speculate when exactly he was on the basis of his theorising.
    Particularly for those with a predisposition against him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Its clear he felt that life was meaningless...
    False.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    ...its also clear that he rejected humbling and quietescent thinking...
    I'm not sure what "quietescent" means, but the first claim is false.

    Your reading of Nietzsche continues to not impress...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    ...[Existentialism is] later day sophistry by pseduo-intellectuals and egotists...
    Men in glass houses should not throw stones.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    ...and it goes double for much of the wordy pretenders which followed, like structuralism, post-structuralism and post-modernism.
    This I will tend to agree with more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I reached that conclusion by comparisons between Orwell and Satre and their writings, I gradually came to the conclusion that Satre was despicable and typified a lot of what made Orwell (and I think its a perrenial anglo-saxon trait in many ways, even if I find that strange for other reasons to do with scholasticism vs. the reformation) sceptical or hostile towards intellectuals.
    I'm not a big fan of Sartre, but maybe you should try to appreciate the positives of his thought; they were very much at odds with the structuralists, post-structuralists, and post-modernists you so claim to despise.

    Also, to form your judgment about all of existentialism based almost entirely on your reading of Sartre, as you have said you've done, is rather myopic.

  3. #13
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    So why do you think existentialism undermines anything but the "absolute" in absolute values?

    I'm not saying whether there is a more rational moral system for an existentialist, but from what I've seen most moral systems continue in much the same form through existentialism.

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    I thank you all for providing me with some clear answers to my question, although I think in future reference I'll take the initiative to reread any texts I have on the matter, rather than make hasty posts that betray any ignorance that I possess on the subject.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Savage Brain View Post
    I thank you all for providing me with some clear answers to my question, although I think in future reference I'll take the initiative to reread any texts I have on the matter, rather than make hasty posts that betray any ignorance that I possess on the subject.
    Sorry if I made you feel that way...

    That wasn't the goal...

    Personally, I think this method is actually a decent way to foster learning...

    I'm sorry if I've contributed to disrupting it...

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by erm View Post
    So why do you think existentialism undermines anything but the "absolute" in absolute values?

    I'm not saying whether there is a more rational moral system for an existentialist, but from what I've seen most moral systems continue in much the same form through existentialism.
    It's generally a theme in existentialism to dichotomize Truth in terms of subjective truth and objective truth. Objective truths regard the essential qualities of things that can be demonstrated through science or analysis, while subjective truths are in the realms of commitments, interpretations, and personal values. For instance, the oaths taken in marriage would be examples of subjective truths; but once they are acted out they can be verified as objective.

    In a way, this does leave room for absolute values; but existentialists are mostly concerned with ways for an individual to achieve purpose in life, whether it be faith based, power based, or something else entirely. This isn't exactly a call for proselytizing absolute values to others in the conventional way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post
    This isn't exactly a call for proselytizing absolute values to others in the conventional way.
    Change that "absolute" to "subjective" though and then many will.

    According to Existentialist thought, everybody who follows absolute values are actually following subjective ones they merely think are absolute. As such, simply ceasing to think they are absolute does not remove the "they should be followed by everyone" aspect.

  8. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    False.
    See when you tell me that what I've stated I've been subjectively thinking is false, the conversation's over.
    Last edited by Survive & Stay Free; 12-09-2010 at 09:10 AM. Reason: spelling

  9. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by erm View Post
    So why do you think existentialism undermines anything but the "absolute" in absolute values?

    I'm not saying whether there is a more rational moral system for an existentialist, but from what I've seen most moral systems continue in much the same form through existentialism.
    Well, to me existentialism is practically indistinguishable from other moral systems, whereby an adherent of, for instance, humanitarianism could subscribe to their values because they believe they correspond to universal, perrenial or "natural" norms or laws an existentialist would suggest there's no such thing but that subscribing to humanitarianism is still worthwhile for them personally.

    That's my understanding of it, which pretty much comes from Camus, although I've read most of the existentialists and their precursors, in the end I sort of think its a very round about way of converging on the same essential point and only really important to people who are going to scrutinise the "why for", instead of simply the "what".

    I've got to admit that I'm of a mind with a lot of the traditional or UK philosophers who are skeptical in the extreme about "continential trends" like existentialism.

  10. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by erm View Post
    Change that "absolute" to "subjective" though and then many will.

    According to Existentialist thought, everybody who follows absolute values are actually following subjective ones they merely think are absolute. As such, simply ceasing to think they are absolute does not remove the "they should be followed by everyone" aspect.
    That sums it up well but also makes me wonder what the expending of effort and time was all for.

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