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  1. #11
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    Well a rock can't think, so does that mean it doesn't exist? Or does the rock exist because we can percieve it? Or does it exist outside of our perception and regardless of its ability to think?
    Nothing about the statement claims that you must think to exist.
    What it claims is that at the very least, you know that you must exist because you are thinking.
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  2. #12
    Senior Member FallsPioneer's Avatar
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    I agree with the above statement. I also think that anything can be rationalized.

    Nothing's any more true the more you violently defend it or impose it upon someone else. There are convictions, and then there are things that I don't quite see can be proved wrong...yet?
    Still using a needle to break apart a grain of sand.

  3. #13
    Member Ojian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    ID doesn't even really make an argument, honestly. In short, it says:

    1. We don't understand how life could have developed on its own.
    2. Therefore God must have created it.

    That's ID, in a nutshell.

    There's nothing there to prove, show, test, or experiment with.
    Though I think I understand where you are coming from, this is bit simplistic of a description.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    (Instead of trying to design a particular drug, for example, to counter a particular disease/bacteria, the chemists will set things up and let the drug essentially develop itself.)
    Replace 'God/Designer' for 'chemists', and you get another simplistic description for ID from what I have seen.

  4. #14
    Senior Member Grayscale's Avatar
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    infallible belief is an oxy-moron

  5. #15
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    I've decided that infallible beliefs are my mortal enemy. I will respect people's beliefs, but I'm convince that once people decide that their beliefs are infallible, it leads to closed mindedness and inevitable conflict.

    Once a person accepts that their belief is infallible, they usually become completely incapable of changing their minds. They become so drunk on the passion of their idea, that they automatically dismiss everyone else's beliefs, often by marking their beliefs as inferior. They then declare that people must respect their belief above all else. It becomes their duty in life to convert everyone to their way of thinking because it escapes their conception that what they believe is right, may not be universally right for everyone.

    Even science constantly tests established beliefs, with hopes of disproving them and discovering something new about what we thought we knew.

    In fact, I've decided that whenever a person accepts that their beliefs are infallible it displays a lack of cultural relativism and critical thinking on their part.

    Thoughts?
    I agree with that for many reasons. It's better not to declare a belief inferior so much as to try and prove/disprove it. If you prove they are wrong, they have to accept it. If they prove you are wrong, you have to accept it. People who just assert a belief is right without any explainable reason for doing so are somewhat unnerving. The only thing that gives their belief strength is the will of the person/people supporting it.

    Well a rock can't think, so does that mean it doesn't exist? Or does the rock exist because we can percieve it? Or does it exist outside of our perception and regardless of its ability to think?
    You certainly think about rocks a lot, Kiddo.

    What he means is that you can determine whether you exist if you are conscious. Descartes applied doubt to all knowledge, including knowledge of his own existence. All that he continued to be aware of was that he was doubting. He concluded that if he was doubting, he had to be thinking. And from that, he concluded that in order to think, he had to exist. Thus the axiom "I think, therefore I am." Having read that is the only reason I don't periodically doubt my own existence, and I'm grateful to him for that.

    Now, if someone could just find a way to prove that something that is perceived actually exists, that would be great.

  6. #16
    desert pelican Owl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    Now, if someone could just find a way to prove that something that is perceived actually exists, that would be great.
    It is either the case that there is something perceived, or there is not something perceived.

    If there is not something perceived, then nothing is perceived.

    If nothing is perceived, then you perceive nothing.
    Last edited by Owl; 02-24-2008 at 04:20 AM. Reason: too many is's

  7. #17
    . Blank's Avatar
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    I remember a Philosophy Club meeting that had a lot to do with the topic of whether or not intelligent design was a science and should be taught in schools.

    The way I see it is like this: If intelligent design claims to be scientific, it should then be held to the rigors of science, i.e. the scientific method. Since there is no observation of a divine creator designing things, it goes to show that intelligent design is not in fact science, until a divine creator is witnessed influencing evolution.

    I apologize for this being a bit off-topic.
    Ti = 19 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Te = 16[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Ne = 16[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
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    Man got to sit and wonder why, why, why;
    Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land;
    Man got to tell himself he understand

  8. #18
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reason View Post
    Both "relativism" and "infallibilism" are uncritical, and fail to promote "critical thinking".
    The problem, as I see it, is not critical thinking, nor is it imaginative, creative thinking.

    Rather the problem is the relationship between the two.

    For critical thinking plainly has its benefits in science, and imaginative thinking plainly has its benefits too in art and religion.

    And the problem seems to be that they are mutually inhibitory.

    And so we make the mistake of thinking they are mutually exclusive.

    Whereas they both have a lot to say to each other.

    Sometimes this is expressed in the slogan, "Faith and Reason".

    But really the problem lies at a deeper personal level. And that is the dissociation of criticism and imagination.

    However the association of criticism and imagination, the conversation of criticism and imagination, the dance of criticism and imagination, can be formally leant.

    And all it requires is abandoning Prussian Pedagogy and embracing l'alternance.

    And I can tell you, l'alternance is just dying for a hug.

  9. #19
    Senior Member ThinkingAboutIt's Avatar
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    I agree that all beliefs should be tested. Mine have many times, and Yahweh God has proven Himself again and again. I explored and learned about a plethora of religions, philosophies, creeds, etc., but I have found that it all comes down to one huge difference - Yahweh God was the only One that actually spoke to me and took visible, undeniable action in my life. I do not persecute others belief, but I do like to learn and/or discuss - especially if it is something I am unfamiliar with. However, I do not like deceit at all and will call out a 'chameleon' in a heartbeat.
    Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

  10. #20
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThinkingAboutIt View Post
    I agree that all beliefs should be tested. Mine have many times, and Yahweh God has proven Himself again and again. I explored and learned about a plethora of religions, philosophies, creeds, etc., but I have found that it all comes down to one huge difference - Yahweh God was the only One that actually spoke to me and took visible, undeniable action in my life. I do not persecute others belief, but I do like to learn and/or discuss - especially if it is something I am unfamiliar with.
    It may well be that you heard Yahweh speak to you, but no one else heard Yahweh speak to you.

    And so as far as we can tell, you were having a delusion.

    And the best way for you to keep on having this delusion is to join others with a similar delusion.

    So you should take yourself to a church, a synagogue, a temple or a mosque to share your delusion with the faithful.

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