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Do you think self interest plays a part in 'genuine' morality?

maydelle

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To truly follow the moral law is to put aside self interest and follow moral commands unconditionally.

That's what I think anyway. What do you think?
 

Nicodemus

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I think you are wrong. I think it is direct self interest and, perhaps through mirror neurons, indirect self interest that, convoluted by culture, perpetuate morality.
 

JocktheMotie

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What is, "doing good because it makes you feel good" anything other than self interest?
 

Qlip

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Absolutely. That's all that morality is, along with herd-interest.
 

Moiety

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I think the value of empathy is erroneously downplayed by the fact that, as humans that we are, we do good to others because we'd like others to do the same for us.

How else, would we'd be compelled to do good to others while still maintaining a sense of self...and NOT be robots?

When abiding by amoral law becomes a habit, I think it becomes more mechanical, and it the human brain no longer thinks in terms selfishness or altruism......it becomes a matter of our identities being tied to that moral conduct.


So yes, genuine morality has to stem partially from self-interest. But also from empathy. Otherwise it wouldn't be morality, it would simply be self-interest and we wouldn't mind being moral hypocrites.
 

Qlip

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I think it's erroneous to downplay anything because you can explain it.
 

maydelle

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What is, "doing good because it makes you feel good" anything other than self interest?

Impartiality and equal consideration for everybody's interests means self interest cannot play a part.

Self interest is not merely wrong however to be moral you must at least be able to perform your moral obligation without reference to any personal goals.
 

Savage Idealist

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Originally posted by Nicodemus
I think you are wrong. I think it is direct self interest and, perhaps through mirror neurons, indirect self interest that, convoluted by culture, perpetuate morality.

Um, what? Please explain how being selfish in our society is considered moral?

Originally posted by JocktheMotie
What is, "doing good because it makes you feel good" anything other than self interest?

Some people are morally empathetic because they care for the well being of others and not just themselves. There are times when I'll do something for someone else, regardless of the way I feel, because I know it is the right thing to do.


The whole point of morality is to make the decision not to act in self-interest, when the well being of others is concerned.
 

Mole

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The whole point of morality is to make the decision not to act in self-interest...

If you are betting on a horse race, always put your money on the horse called, "Self Interest", 'cause you know they are trying to win.
 

Savage Idealist

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Originally posted by Victor
If you are betting on a horse race, always put your money on the horse called, "Self Interest", 'cause you know they are trying to win.

Wait, what? What exactly are you getting at, that life is a horse race so you should always be selfish in order to win? Because if so, then your wrong, life isn't completey that way, at the very least it shouldn't be.
 

Mole

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Climbing out of the bucket.

Please explain how being selfish in our society is considered moral?

Since, "The Wealth of Nations", by Adam Smith was published in 1776, we have known that private greed leads to public prosperity.

Prior to 1776 we believed private greed was socially destructive, and we gave it the name of, "Usury", and we demonised usurers and persecuted them.

Modern economics is based on, "The Wealth of Nations". And most important, modern economics is counter-intuitive.

Unfortunately most uneducated people still think intuitively, when modern economics, modern science and modern politics are all counter-intuitive.

So the average uneducated person does not understand what is going on around them, so they turn to intuitive nostrums to make sense of it all.

There are many intuitive nostrums to bury ourselves in but the familiar ones are the New Age, Astrology and MBTI.

MBTI is like the bucket to catch those who can't make sense of the counter-intuitive world we live in.

This is tragic on one level and comic on another, as we have been able to climb out of the bucket since 1776!
 

Savage Idealist

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Originally posted by Nicodemus
It isn't.

Then please explain what you mean by the statement "direct self interest . . . convoluted by culture, perpetuate morality". It sound like you saying selfishness allows for morality.

Originally posted by Victor
Since, "The Wealth of Nations", by Adam Smith was published in 1776, we have known that private greed leads to public prosperity.

I don't completely disagree with, but there are times when private greed leads very much to the opposite.

Prior to 1776 we believed private greed was socially destructive, and we gave it the name of, "Usury", and we demonised usurers and persecuted them.

Because greed can be socially destructive at times.

Modern economics is based on, "The Wealth of Nations". And most important, modern economics is counter-intuitive.

Unfortunately most uneducated people still think intuitively, when modern economics, modern science and modern politics are all counter-intuitive.

So the average uneducated person does not understand what is going on around them, so they turn to intuitive nostrums to make sense of it all.

There are many intuitive nostrums to bury ourselves in but the familiar ones are the New Age, Astrology and MBTI.

MBTI is like the bucket to catch those who can't make sense of the counter-intuitive world we live in.

This is tragic on one level and comic on another, as we have been able to climb out of the bucket since 1776!

So pretty much your saying that modern economics is based on the rationality that people usually place their interests first, thus an economic system that is greed based (which works against our preconceived notions on greed as immoral) is good because of the prosperity it can produce? In which case, to a certain extent I can agree with. But lets not forget that such an ideal system has not always been a good one; living conditions for workers in capitalist societies in the 1800's was really shitty and awful, the greed of corporate tycoons resulted in a few people living vastly/unneccesary wealthy/comfoy lives while thousands worked tooth and nail for crap wages. While laws today prevent such disgusting abuse of worker a lot of selfish based actions still can lead to immoral deceision; like banks forclsoing on homes to save themsleves money while forcing families onto the streets, or insurance companies denying coverage becasue that technical illness isn't "covered".
 

Lark

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To truly follow the moral law is to put aside self interest and follow moral commands unconditionally.

That's what I think anyway. What do you think?

I dont know, which is to say I do no necessarily agree.

It could correspond to certain moral precepts to suggest that obligations to take paramountcy over selfishness, however, it could also correspond to certain sorts of neurotic personality structure or character or maladaption or maladjustment. Eric Fromm did some interesting investigation of this in his books, particularly Man For Himself, he distinguished between self-love or self-interest, which he thought where legitimate, and selfishness. He's a great source because he has great affinity with socialist thinkers but he's pretty critical of the sorts of psychologically maladjusted behaviour that some of its supporters or writers have exhibited or typified.

Ayn Rand goes to extremes in seeking to parody the sort of self-sacrificing personality while celebrating selfishness but the essential idea that people sacrificing themselves or sacrifice per se can be a great evil. I know that Rand and her followers wouldnt agree because they are anti-Christian some of them but because of my understanding of Christianity I would condemn sacrifice qua sacrifice or for its sake because the scriptues exhibit a steady progression away from holocausts and sacrifices, finally God sacrifices himself and I pretty much see that as an end to that kind of thing.

Its perhaps a psychological rather than moral philosophical angle that I'm approaching it from but I think that self-interest is a fundamental objective reality, taking it to pathological extremes is wrong but I think it is a lived reality, the same as radical interdependence is a reality too. Balance, the golden rule and the golden mean are the best guides for life.
 

maydelle

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I dont know, which is to say I do no necessarily agree.

It could correspond to certain moral precepts to suggest that obligations to take paramountcy over selfishness, however, it could also correspond to certain sorts of neurotic personality structure or character or maladaption or maladjustment. Eric Fromm did some interesting investigation of this in his books, particularly Man For Himself, he distinguished between self-love or self-interest, which he thought where legitimate, and selfishness. He's a great source because he has great affinity with socialist thinkers but he's pretty critical of the sorts of psychologically maladjusted behaviour that some of its supporters or writers have exhibited or typified.

Ayn Rand goes to extremes in seeking to parody the sort of self-sacrificing personality while celebrating selfishness but the essential idea that people sacrificing themselves or sacrifice per se can be a great evil. I know that Rand and her followers wouldnt agree because they are anti-Christian some of them but because of my understanding of Christianity I would condemn sacrifice qua sacrifice or for its sake because the scriptues exhibit a steady progression away from holocausts and sacrifices, finally God sacrifices himself and I pretty much see that as an end to that kind of thing.

Its perhaps a psychological rather than moral philosophical angle that I'm approaching it from but I think that self-interest is a fundamental objective reality, taking it to pathological extremes is wrong but I think it is a lived reality, the same as radical interdependence is a reality too. Balance, the golden rule and the golden mean are the best guides for life.

Would you agree if I said that you are a Virtue Ethicist?
 

Lark

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Would you agree if I said that you are a Virtue Ethicist?

Its something I'm interested in, perhaps for the time being it is a legitimate description of my perspective, at least in so far as I understand it, which would be that virtue ethicists are like McIntyre and his whole "Forward to 1600" idea (dont know if I got that date exactly right but anyway).

The BBC personality inventory which someone posted about social conscience had me scoring high and indicating that I held social ethics and norms to be important.

My only concern though is that while I hold certain things to be good and practice those assiduously myself I'm less sure about compelling others to do likewise, sometimes its a sure thing that they should and I make no bones about that, I'm not on message with never making a judgement or being judgemental but by the same token there's a difference between that an many of the authoritarian mindsets which use virtue as a flag of convenience.
 

maydelle

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My only concern though is that while I hold certain things to be good and practice those assiduously myself I'm less sure about compelling others to do likewise, sometimes its a sure thing that they should and I make no bones about that, I'm not on message with never making a judgement or being judgemental but by the same token there's a difference between that an many of the authoritarian mindsets which use virtue as a flag of convenience.

Compared to you I would be seen as a Kantian. I think that a genuine moral principle must be capable of being applied consistently. Obvious we are all different, and have to deal with different situations. But a genuine moral imperative applies to anyone in a similar situation, it must therefore be based on a universal principle.
 

maydelle

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My only concern though is that while I hold certain things to be good and practice those assiduously myself I'm less sure about compelling others to do likewise, sometimes its a sure thing that they should and I make no bones about that, I'm not on message with never making a judgement or being judgemental but by the same token there's a difference between that an many of the authoritarian mindsets which use virtue as a flag of convenience.

Compared to you I would be seen as a Kantian. I think that a genuine moral principle must be capable of being applied consistently. Obvious we are all different, and have to deal with different situations. But a genuine moral imperative applies to anyone in a similar situation, it must therefore be based on a universal principle.
 

Condor

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To truly follow the moral law is to put aside self interest and follow moral commands unconditionally.

That's what I think anyway. What do you think?

I'm not sure about doing anything "unconditionally", but is self-interest always amoral? I don't see self-interest as being in conflict with morality. Personally, I see that taking care of yourself (my definition of self-interest) must happen so one does not become a burden to society. Then the question of "Is it wrong to steal a loaf of bread to feed your family" gets raised and situational ethics isn't far behind.
 
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