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  1. #21
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    I did some acid when I was 17.. I stopped believing in religion at least then. No more Christian God for me.

    I believe in creation. But nothing like the way religion teaches it.

  2. #22
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    It wasn't a moment, or rather, it probably was but I don't remember it specifically.

    It was after an intense time of disappointment with some of the leadership at the Bible college I was attending. It wasn't adultery or absconding with funds or anything like that -- after all, I was an Evangelical teenager in the late eighties. It was the basic lack of honesty and the apparent complete lack of compassion and ethics toward their fellow man. Also apparently, without the slightest twinge of conscience or loss of sleep. It really made me question what I believed and why I was even bothering to try to live a Christian life.

    Ultimately, it came down to my belief in Jesus. Come what will, I believe in him and I believe in what he taught. I am not the greatest at following his teachings, not by a long shot, but he is my north star.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  3. #23
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    For most of my youth I resisted faith moments or revival. Looking back it was all for the best. I was often pushed, particularly in youth group, to make faith commitments to do this or not to do that. In reality I was being pushed towards putting more and more faith in myself and not God. To the extent that I did put faith in myself I became discouraged as I inevitably would let myself down.

    For the past ten years I have been struggling daily with the difference between placing my faith in myself and faith in God. When I began to view God as a steadfast father who's view of me did not change despite my good or bad deeds, but rather fully and totally accepted me then I began to experience true love. Then I realized I was free to do good and that I did need not do good to be free.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  4. #24
    Senior Member Helios's Avatar
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    Abandoning Christianity earlier this year. The best decision I've ever made, thank God.

  5. #25
    Senior Member Lily flower's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    It wasn't a moment, or rather, it probably was but I don't remember it specifically.

    It was after an intense time of disappointment with some of the leadership at the Bible college I was attending. It wasn't adultery or absconding with funds or anything like that -- after all, I was an Evangelical teenager in the late eighties. It was the basic lack of honesty and the apparent complete lack of compassion and ethics toward their fellow man. Also apparently, without the slightest twinge of conscience or loss of sleep. It really made me question what I believed and why I was even bothering to try to live a Christian life.

    Ultimately, it came down to my belief in Jesus. Come what will, I believe in him and I believe in what he taught. I am not the greatest at following his teachings, not by a long shot, but he is my north star.
    I know what you mean. I always have to look to Jesus and not to people, because people are fallible.

  6. #26
    Senior Member Lily flower's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    For most of my youth I resisted faith moments or revival. Looking back it was all for the best. I was often pushed, particularly in youth group, to make faith commitments to do this or not to do that. In reality I was being pushed towards putting more and more faith in myself and not God. To the extent that I did put faith in myself I became discouraged as I inevitably would let myself down.

    For the past ten years I have been struggling daily with the difference between placing my faith in myself and faith in God. When I began to view God as a steadfast father who's view of me did not change despite my good or bad deeds, but rather fully and totally accepted me then I began to experience true love. Then I realized I was free to do good and that I did need not do good to be free.
    Have you read Sit, Walk, Stand by Watchman Nee? What you are describing sounds exactly what I got out of that book. I don't know if you are referring to Christian faith or not, but for me that was a life changing book. It was so freeing - to realize that in Christ we have been washed clean and that we don't need to do works to earn God's approval. He loves and approves of us already. And when we fall, we don't need to spend a lot of time trying to fix it, we just stand up and brush ourselves off and see what is next on the journey. Too many people in the church run around like chickens with their heads cut off trying to please God, when they don't realize that He loves us unconditionally and that they don't have to do anything.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    I have always loved the break, the in between.

    ...

    And I have always loved the break between the inner and the outer, between the introvert and the extrovert.

    ...

    And I have come to understand we perceive by making distinctions. And a distinction is nothing but a break.
    So fair Victor, if you are so in love with breaks, and a distinction is nothing but a break, then why do you so hate the distinction between Sensors and Intuitives, and Thinkers and Feelers?

    If you love breaks and distinctions, it seems you should love the MBTI.


  8. #28
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    Cool Des are de breaks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    So fair Victor, if you are so in love with breaks, and a distinction is nothing but a break, then why do you so hate the distinction between Sensors and Intuitives, and Thinkers and Feelers?

    If you love breaks and distinctions, it seems you should love the MBTI.

    Well, there are breaks and breaks. Some breaks are tested by random double blind experiments. And so we can determine whether they describe the world or not.

    As I understand it, MBTI has not been tested with even one random double blind experiment in seventy years.

    That alone would make any reasonable person suspicious.

    But when one discovers its provenance, that is, where is came from, and what it's used for, and who uses it, any reasonable person with integrity would reject it.

    Des are de breaks.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Well, there are breaks and breaks. Some breaks are tested by random double blind experiments. And so we can determine whether they describe the world or not.
    Yes, such as:

    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    ...the break between school and university...

    ...a break between school and work...

    ...the break between the inner and the outer...

    ...between the introvert and the extrovert...

    ...sleeping and waking...

    ...the break between male and female...

    ...the break between birth and death...
    I'm sure those all have been rigorously tested by double blind experiments...

    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    As I understand it, MBTI has not been tested with even one random double blind experiment in seventy years.

    That alone would make any reasonable person suspicious.
    OK, I'm gunna break one of my cardinal rules, and actually try to engage you in rational discourse... please don't make me regret this...

    So I've seen you use this line like ten times before: but what kind of double blind experiment would you recommend?

    It seems to me there's no definitive way to prove type, so how would you set it up?


  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Yes, such as:
    I'm sure those all have been rigorously tested by double blind experiments...
    It would not be sensible to apply a random double blind experiment to poetry.

    However it is essential to apply a random double blind experiment to a personality test to see if it is valid and reliable.

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