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What does it mean to be truly evil?

Tamske

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Both have become corrupted into sin (according to the Biblical definition of evil), by being taken well beyond their intended purposes and making them selfish ends in themselves. This generates much of the "difficulty" in "life".

What is the intended purpose of, say, sex? Reproduction? That's indeed the thing "intended" (*) by our little genes... and they made sex pleasant in order to make us strive for it.

(*) I used quotes because genes are not active, willful agents. The genes who, by chance, promoted sex proved to be the most succesful and got their reward in copies, thus making the lustful animals the most numerous.

But then anticonception is evil, because the intended purpose of sex has been thwarted already! Still, anticonception has been a boon for lots of women; and children who only get made when they are wanted and can be cared for!

What are these "purposes" of everything, other than consequences?

Moreover, what's so wrong about striving for more than you have already? Should a doctor not strive for curing more illnesses? Should a scientist not strive for knowing more about electricity or engines? If we stop experimenting on human cells, maybe we will postpone the cure of cancer and aids for some decades... or forever... Where do you put the border between a healthy ambition and greed?
 

Eric B

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That would just echo the original OP question.
When these drives lead us to what we would call "truly evil", such as sex abuse and political/economic corruption, war, etc then you could say you've crossed the line, and cannot be excused by the mere presence of the drive.
 

Tamske

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So it's the consequences that matter? If the consequences of your action hurt other people, you're being evil... Yes, there can be something in it...

In the meanwhile I've thought about this.

I'm an amateur writer and I want to get better at writing. There's nothing wrong with that. Nobody is harmed by my writing. There's even a (very small) chance my writing will be good enough to give a few other people a bit of a good time reading my book. I guess there's always something better to do (I could do volunteer work and actively help others instead of just doing no harm), so I'd call this neutral.

Suppose now I enter a writing contest. Of course I try to win. So in essence, I'm actively trying to rob other contestants of their winning chance. Evil? Well, anybody who enters a contest knows there are others trying to win too. There's a conflict of interest (everybody wants to win), which is accepted by every participant. Neutral.

Suppose now I know one of the members of the jury. I drop this member the hint that I'm the one participating under that nickname and I give a bottle of wine. That's where things turn evil, I guess. Cheating.

Of course, cheating in a contest or a game is fairly mild, not on par with murder or rape. But is murder not essentially cheating? There's a game rule (a law) telling you not to kill. There's also a silent agreement between humans - we don't kill each other. Just like, if I play chess with you, I assume you won't displace the pieces when I'm away from the board, I assume nobody will kill me.

I'm very strongly against cheating, even in a game without any consequences.
 
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Ginkgo

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All of the following are signatures of 'truly' evil people: knowingly committing immoral acts, or lacking integrity, honor, or dignity.

Moral actions aren't done in regard for consequence, but in regard to their own moral value. Immoral actions aren't done in regard for consequence either. However, moral values are predetermined through consequential thinking.

Simply put: The truly evil person acts immorally to be evil. He wills himself into that state of being and is duly responsible for it.
 

Tiltyred

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An evil person does wrong things while knowing they are wrong. Which, IMO, constitutes mental illness. Although authorities on the subject disagree. For example, Jeffrey Daumer was considered sane because he understood the difference between right and wrong. But for my money, you go drilling holes in people's heads and keeping their parts in the freezer, you're crazy, period. And evil.
 

Mole

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The Shoah

Last century we came as close to absolute evil as it is possible to get, in the shoah.

As a result we formed the United Nations and adopted the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

And all nations, including my own, have accepted the Universal Declaration of Human Rights except the OIC (Organisation of Islamic Conference) comprising fifty-seven Islamic States.

The OIC reject the Universal Declaration of Human Rights because they wish to continue to violate the rights of women and children and carry out a second shoah.

This is truly evil.
 

Nicodemus

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At least those islamic states do not commit a breach of contract when they violate human rights.
 

Amethyst

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If you have killed puppies and kittens for your own amusement as a child, I believe that is a good determining factor of whether someone is evil or not.
 

Mole

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If you have killed puppies and kittens for your own amusement as a child, I believe that is a good determining factor of whether someone is evil or not.

It can hardly be a predictor of the shoah.

In fact it is absurd to think of a whole nation as puppy killers and kitten killers, whereas is took a whole industrial nation to prosecute the shoah.
 

Amethyst

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Where do you think that starts, though? That's just a mere example of first signs of someone who could possibly be evil, maybe the ability to strike extreme propaganda and fear into the hearts of citizens in order to create such evil as the shoah was a first sign.
 

Mole

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The Universal Declaration of Human Rights and Puppies and Kittens

Where do you think that starts, though? That's just a mere example of first signs of someone who could possibly be evil, maybe the ability to strike extreme propaganda and fear into the hearts of citizens in order to create such evil as the shoah was a first sign.

Such evil doesn't emerge on the individual level. This is called reductionism. No, such near absolute evil emerges at the national level.

To reduce the shoah to the killing of puppies and kittens is sentimentality in the face of near absolute evil.

I can understand you don't want to face near absolute evil, who does? But to reduce it to sentimentality is an insult to all the victims.

The rest of us set about doing something about near absolute evil and we formed the United Nations and adopted the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

There is nothing sentimental in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, and nothing about puppies and kittens.
 
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Ginkgo

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Where do you think that starts, though? That's just a mere example of first signs of someone who could possibly be evil, maybe the ability to strike extreme propaganda and fear into the hearts of citizens in order to create such evil as the shoah was a first sign.

Victor's not evil!
 

Nicodemus

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Victor is wrong. However, in order to avoid one of the discussions which he so strongly dislikes, I refrain from stating the reasons for my assertion.
 

Totenkindly

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Such evil doesn't emerge on the individual level. This is called reductionism. No, such near absolute evil emerges at the national level.

I wouldn't diminish the power of personal level in an individual life.

We have individual evil, and we have institutionalized evil. M. Scott Peck described both in his book "People of the Lie" -- using anecdotes from his years as a psychiatrist as well as historical atrocities like My Lai. It's obvious that both impact each other but are different -- one of the large differences being the potential scope of destruction.

But both involve strategies to avoid culpability (the "lie"... either to oneself or to others).
Self-interest is prioritized to the detriment of others, and truth is distorted to avoid dealing with the reality of the self-interest.
 

Mole

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I wouldn't diminish the power of personal level in an individual life.

We have individual evil, and we have institutionalized evil. M. Scott Peck described both in his book "People of the Lie" -- using anecdotes from his years as a psychiatrist as well as historical atrocities like My Lai. It's obvious that both impact each other but are different -- one of the large differences being the potential scope of destruction.

But both involve strategies to avoid culpability (the "lie"... either to oneself or to others).
Self-interest is prioritized to the detriment of others, and truth is distorted to avoid dealing with the reality of the self-interest.

Yes, I think almost all of us can recognise individual evil. In fact our criminal justice system is geared towards individual evil. But institutional evil seem strangely invisible.

Genocide is our worst institutional evil. Yet the Turks still deny their genocide of the Armenians. And the Tutsi deny their genocide of the Hutu. And the Sudanese can't see genocide in front of them, even though their President has a warrant out for his arrest.

Perhaps the next worst evil is war. And war has been valorised forever. And some have made military spending the Keynesian flywheel of their economy.

The institutional abuse of children within catholicism remained hidden for centuries.

And in most societies the institutional abuse of women was taken for granted.

And in Islam today we see the institutionalisation of jihad and martyrdom.

Why is this?

It's because we conflate our institutions with our parents. We depend on our institutions for our survival and to criticise them is experienced as a threat to our common survival.

And we can see that here, as principled criticism of MBTI is unwelcome; is never fully accepted; and the character of the dissenter is called into question. This is because members feel that if the criticism of MBTI is full accepted, it would mean the death of Central.

Of course I know this is a false fear as Central is bigger than MBTI - thank heavens.

But the fact remains that the institutions of genocide, war, the abuse of children and women, jihad and MBTI all depend on a shared social lie.
 
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