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  1. #51
    Senior Member Blown Ghost's Avatar
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    you should NEVER lie to a child. they will never trust you again.

  2. #52
    Senior Member ZPowers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blown Ghost View Post
    you should NEVER lie to a child. they will never trust you again.
    Unless you don't care about a child's trust. In that case, go nuts.
    Does he want a pillow for his head?

  3. #53
    Senior Member LunarMoon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Smart vs. Stupid is intellect is it not? Intellect being distinct from cognition or morality, I'm not confusing the theories, I just dont see them a mutually exclusive or that one is correct and the other false.
    You referenced consequential thinking in your previous post. By the definition of stupidity that I was using, I was stating that any adult incapable of consequential thinking and who thus makes the poor decisions that I referenced in my previous post, is stupid. So in that regard, we were actually discussing intellect to begin with. I wouldn't, after all, regard the ability to think consequentially as part of moral development, other than on a basic level. Also, cognition refers to the process of thinking in itself, meaning that intellect is actually a subtype of cognition, which is to say that they are not distinct.

    I'm not entirely sure what you mean by the last sentence though. I never mentioned that I think that Piaget is correct while Kolberg is wrong. I'm simply debating against the idea that an adult is necessarily better at consequential thought than an older child or adolescent, which is what you implied in your first post.
    Surgeons replace one of your neurons with a microchip that duplicates its input-output functions. You feel and behave exactly as before. Then they replace a second one, and a third one, and so on, until more and more of your brain becomes silicon. Since each microchip does exactly what the neuron did, your behavior and memory never change. Do you even notice the difference? Does it feel like dying? Is some other conscious entity moving in with you?
    -Steven Pinker on the Ship of Theseus Paradox

  4. #54
    Senior Member Helios's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post

    Is it ever the right thing to lie to a child? Give them a positive falsehood.
    Sure. "Father Christmas exists" is a good example.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Is it ever the right thing to withhold the truth from a child, without outright lying? Obscure a negative truth.
    I don't see any reason why not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Is it right to tell them you are certain about something that you really know is completely uncertain to you?
    I think so. For example, a mother may lie and tell her child that she is certain that its seriously ill father, who in fact has a 50% chance of making a full recovery and a 50% chance of dying, will make a full recovery. I'm not sure how anyone could justify another course of action in such a situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Should the information a child can access on its own be restricted?
    Yes. The finer details of sexual intercourse ought to be withheld from a five year old, for instance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Does the answers to these questions depend on specific age? Is it "yes" for a 5 year old, but "no" for a 10 year old? When is the line crossed?
    This depends on the individual child in question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I'm going to go even beyond my parents and make the radical proposal that a child should receive any and all information that it inquires for, as accurately as can be done (you can't spend all day explaining everything in minute detail, unfortunately).

    I tend to think that there is no such thing as bad knowledge (of course, I am open to any cost-benefit analysis to the contrary). I think that keeping the truth from a child simultaneously leaves them vulnerable to the harshness of the real world, and starves their critical thinking abilities (on the bright side, their inclination to think critically might sky rocket if they learn what a huge liar you are, but I think that's a bad way to go about it).
    Keeping some knowledge from a child until certain ages have been reached is a way in which they can be prepared for the harshness of the real world gently, and therefore responsibly. To allow them unrestricted access to any and all information whatever their age borders on recklessness.

    I consider the insistence on openness and honesty to be a very religious, and especially Christian, attitude. As far as I am concerned, lies and deceit can be just as virtuous as honesty.

  5. #55
    Senior Member LunarMoon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helios View Post
    Sure. "Father Christmas exists" is a good example.
    Could you please explain why it's a good example?

    I think so. For example, a mother may lie and tell her child that she is certain that its seriously ill father, who in fact has a 50% chance of making a full recovery and a 50% chance of dying, will make a full recovery. I'm not sure how anyone could justify another course of action in such a situation.
    You can’t see how anyone could justify telling the truth? Death is a fact of life and lying to an older child, especially, is pretty questionable, especially since many children are smart enough to figure it out anyway.

    Yes. The finer details of sexual intercourse ought to be withheld from a five year old, for instance.
    Why? Adults seem to be the only ones with an actual problem in regard to it. If the child in question knows about other facets of biological science then I don’t see why this particular one is special, especially if they’ve demonstrated enough curiosity to ask.

    Keeping some knowledge from a child until certain ages have been reached is a way in which they can be prepared for the harshness of the real world gently, and therefore responsibly. To allow them unrestricted access to any and all information whatever their age borders on recklessness.
    It seems that this would just prepare them for disappointment, discourage intellectual curiosity, and encourage delusional thought. Personally, I could never fathom the idea of restricting children from watching the news, for instance, since other than the Discovery Channel and its affiliates, it’s perhaps the only useful thing on television.

    I consider the insistence on openness and honesty to be a very religious, and especially Christian, attitude. As far as I am concerned, lies and deceit can be just as virtuous as honesty.
    This is a very counter intuitive statement to make. The idea of openly spreading and absorbing knowledge for its own sake seems to be a Post-Enlightenment, almost agnostic and atheistic, ideal. Most intellectuals would cringe at the idea of books being burned for containing inconvenient information, while there are many religious fundamentalists who openly support it.
    Surgeons replace one of your neurons with a microchip that duplicates its input-output functions. You feel and behave exactly as before. Then they replace a second one, and a third one, and so on, until more and more of your brain becomes silicon. Since each microchip does exactly what the neuron did, your behavior and memory never change. Do you even notice the difference? Does it feel like dying? Is some other conscious entity moving in with you?
    -Steven Pinker on the Ship of Theseus Paradox

  6. #56
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    When I was told santa wasn't real I was devastated

    I think I would of been just as happy and joyful at christmas time as a kid if I knew the truth so I don't understand the point of the lie other than to inevitably cause pain

    Could be an NT thing though... don't know

  7. #57
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    fairly recently i had an argument with my father (ENTP) on a topic similar to this. both of my parents are psychologists and my dad mainly does clinical hypnosis. While honesty and the search for truth have always been among my highest values my dad has never seen anything morally wrong about lying to someone if it is genuinely for there own benefit (as in the placebo effect) and being clinical hypnosis this is really quite a large part of his job. When it comes right down to it, i beleive that no matter how unpleasant the truth is, the person you are dealing with deserves the right to know it. Say theoretically that someone had a terminal illness with absoulutely ZERO chance of recovery (i know that this is impossible but bear with me) i personally can honestly say that i would rather be told about it and then spend the last (whatever amount of time) in my life enjoying myself as much as i possibly could.

    to the point of the actual question i think that as long as a child is capable of understanding the thing that they are asking you to explain, you should ALWAYS tell them the truth about it. There is nothing wrong with withholding something that the child is not able to understand, or will probably not be able to handle emotionally (such as telling them about a recently convicted serial rapist or something) but you should NEVER outright lie.

  8. #58
    Consulting Detective Mr. Sherlock Holmes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unique View Post
    When I was told santa wasn't real I was devastated

    I think I would of been just as happy and joyful at christmas time as a kid if I knew the truth so I don't understand the point of the lie other than to inevitably cause pain

    Could be an NT thing though... don't know
    I found out Santa wasn't real through my own eventually logical analysis, but for the longest time I believed it just because I wanted to and was afraid of the possibility that he wasn't, even though there was strong evidence against it. But it was pretty saddening. My mum eventually caught on that I didn't believe anymore, so I never actually told her. But I agree. Just tell me you're giving me presents. It won't make me unhappy. I also hated it when other kids lied to me, because I was so freaking gullible! I always believed everything they said, because at that age, other than to avoid getting in trouble, I could not fathom a reason someone would lie. It just seemed pointless. I mean if you make up some story about magic and conspiracies or whatever, at least let me know it's a game!
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  9. #59
    Senior Member Synapse's Avatar
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    I thought this was an interesting video.

    [youtube="kVCSfJZK4_I"]Feeling Safe and Secure[/youtube]

    Dunno if it answers anything though.

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