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War is Beautiful

Little_Sticks

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Only in war does a human being feed the instinctive desire to destroy the life around them. It is only directed at life; its nature depends on it.

Then what makes it so grandiose in its beauty? When war ends, societies are destroyed. Those who fought in a war and survived it now have to live with what has been taken from them through its destruction. These people, tormented by the apex of human destruction and violence, desire peace much more than those who have never fought in a war. When the war ends, the greatest peace between the survivors can be achieved - human aggressions become a minimum.

After a war, people then become less focused on aggression and by being motivated most by peace they desire to optimistically rebuild their society as best and peacefully and morally as possible. This is where the beauty is seen. People learn from the mistakes of their past and apply new ideas in the hopes that the mistakes that lead to the greatest horrors of human nature can be avoided; and they rebuild and re-engineer their societies with the inspiration that the same problems won't occur again - that all actions have meaning and as long as we learn from our mistakes, we will construct societies that create a greater and longer-lasting peace.

But as time goes on, the memory of a war fades in human minds. As time goes on, aggressions start increasing. Soon enough aggressions become too great and at its apex we encounter war again. Thus the cycle repeats. And it's beautiful because in the wake of its destruction it leaves an intelligent imprint in time where humanity rebuilds things differently and better than before and tries to improve society. It is only in the absence of war do societies become most stagnate.

But with this in mind, is it possible to create a society that can appreciate and understand the peace of minimum aggression, while still carrying the creative intelligence of destroying and rebuilding? Or do human beings naturally thrive on aggression and is war a necessary evil to temporarily abate our dark never satisfied aggressive desires that eventually overwhelm and aghast us to try and change our societies with inherently futile hopeful optimism? Or are we forever doomed to be simply like bacteria in a petri dish programmed to destroy parts of itself when the dish becomes full in an attempt to fruitlessly change and grow again to only fill the petri dish once again?

*By saying that a war has ended, I mean that a transgressor has been defeated. If a country invades another, but plays the role of a transgressor, then that country will always be at war until it is defeated or the country invaded is completely dissolved or destroyed.
 

Fluffywolf

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War is for the sensors. Intuitives feel the pain of war without experiencing it. :D

Your post is many a main theme in stories and movies alike. The 'viscious' cycle of war, bringing true peace. An understanding of peace that can only be attained through war. Without war, there would not be a desire for peace. And the fruits of peace could not be felt as strongly by those we eat the fruit daily opposed to those who have been starving of the fruit in many years.

War is meaningless, because we are meaningless. We are meaningless, because the fruit is meaningless. And as the fruit is meaningless, paradise is meaningless.

The only meaning we have, is the meaning we stamp on what we think we experience and feel in contrast to what others experience and feel. Born from the desire to belong and to be above average.

Lock and load? Nah, let's have a drink before the war.
 

Walking Tourist

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War is not for this sensor.
When I was watching the news before the start of the Iraq war, soldiers were shown, practicing in Kuwait. They were running with their bayonets and were attacking straw people. My mind translated those stabbed straw people into old ladies, children, babies, and other people. I saw the faces of my friends and relatives. I felt dizzy and weak and full of horror and I had to turn off the television. Also I was weeping copiously.:cry:
I have a very low tolerance level for any kind of violence.
Also I don't see the point of war. If it were to stop, I would be very happy. My digestive system, too, would be very happy.

War is for the sensors. Intuitives feel the pain of war without experiencing it. :D
 

Savage Idealist

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Since when are murder, destruction, death, and chaos considered to be beautiful (if your not a psychopath)?
 

Betty Blue

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I have thought about this befor, on both sides.
The counter side being that it is possible for humans to live in peaceful civilisations like the neolithic peoples supposedly did.
However i realise that there is recent excavation & study concerning them that is unearthing evidence of more aggressive and violent tendencies as least in some areas.

IMO throughout history there tends to be peaceful tribes/societies ...and countering them (often) are the warlike tribes/societies who attack and conquer. Of course there are variants.
I also think that peaceful societies have more oportunity (in general and not specific) to make advancements as they do not waste resources or currency on warring. Thus they have more time and resources to study and learn.

I could also argue the other side though.....
 
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Stevo

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No, not really.

I'll admit there is a stark and terrible beauty inherent in the form of the explosion of a hydrogen bomb or other such potent weapon of death. But there is nothing beautiful about killing.
 

Stanton Moore

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There is no instinctual desire to destroy life. An animal's primary goal is not the pleasure of the act of killling, although this may be a secondary motivation.
 

Little_Sticks

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Well now, that's no way to start a tldr thread. The first sentence gotta be indisputable, and that one just isn't.

Well, war is the collective desire of more than one person to destroy other life. There are various degrees of war in various scopes, and you can nitpick, but I'm focusing on the most destructive one, and attempting to correlate it with aggression, which I believe will still explain your nitpicking. So instead of attempting to clarify and focus on what I have talked about you have added nothing to the discussion, where I was willing to spill out my private thoughts, and that makes you a genuine troll. There, I recognized and gave you attention; are you pleased now? And I think you might like INTP central more.

Since when are murder, destruction, death, and chaos considered to be beautiful (if your not a psychopath)?

It's not, it's what it produces that I think is beauty. Destruction of life is one way to change the present to lead to later creative beauty.

A post so grand that it could not fit into my 'war' thread.

Yes, I thought about it, but I wasn't interested in posting in a thread that had the preoccupation with 'telling you something interesting about war' rather than having the whole focus on what I have talked about. Here's the mic, you can have your spotlight back since it means so much to you.

There is no instinctual desire to destroy life. An animal's primary goal is not the pleasure of the act of killling, although this may be a secondary motivation.

I agree that the primary goal is not the pleasure of the act of killing. But I disagree that we do not have an instinctual desire to destroy life or there would not be wars or violence. I wanted to share a questionable, and yet therefore malleable interpretation for why war could be a good thing and why.

No, not really.

I'll admit there is a stark and terrible beauty inherent in the form of the explosion of a hydrogen bomb or other such potent weapon of death. But there is nothing beautiful about killing.

Well, you're right. But I'm more referring to how it changes things when it is over. I think its creative element is important to understand if anyone is to understand what underlying purpose there might be to having huge masses of people desiring to destroy one another. It's amazing, isn't it? To think that all those wars where people are attempting to gain something, whether it be power, alleviate poverty and despair, sovereignty, religion, morality, etc. It's all very interesting how in the aftermath of a war people can form a new government that gives more freedoms and wealth to the people governed. They can rebuild new more-advanced cities and by looking at what happened in the past re-evaluate what their ethical system and codes should be (justice system and economic system). Despite the fact that many people think war might be pointless, we are always learning something and trying something new that wouldn't come about the same way without war. It's incredible, but of course can also be a hinderer on society, but in the grand scope of things, I believe humanity has advanced and learned quite a bit more than it loses through war. In this way, with war we seem more able to decide when something isn't working well and destroy it to make something anew that will be better, or at least attempt to solve the problems that plagued the past.

Anyway, I find this discussion really interesting and appreciate everyone's thoughts. Maybe I can add something later after seeing what everyone thinks and hopefully getting a better clarity from it.
 

Within

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Well, war is the collective desire of more than one person to destroy other life. There are various degrees of war in various scopes, and you can nitpick, but I'm focusing on the most destructive one, and attempting to correlate it with aggression, which I believe will still explain your nitpicking. So instead of attempting to clarify and focus on what I have talked about you have added nothing to the discussion, where I was willing to spill out my private thoughts, and that makes you a genuine troll. There, I recognized and gave you attention; are you pleased now? And I think you might like INTP central more.

I wonder if you've actually experienced war or if you're just feeding your own bullshit theory with your own naive impression of it. And no you are right I was trollin' but you don't make it easy for a brotha not to. I wonder if your not used to critique or if they ruffled your hair over at INTPc. There is no beauty in killing others but the world isn't beautiful, and some people in the less comfortable parts of the world don't have that luxury to begin with.

So you'll have to excuse me for not being able to take you seriously. One thing you could do is post a few pics if your napalm burned, barbwire scarred body. That would at least give you fair ground to stand on for those opinions you expressed. :coffee:
 

Lark

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I dont think war is beautiful, I've experienced the low intensity warfare of NI and I think I know what I'm talking about.
 

Little_Sticks

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I wonder if you've actually experienced war or if you're just feeding your own bullshit theory with your own naive impression of it. And no you are right I was trollin' but you don't make it easy for a brotha not to. I wonder if your not used to critique or if they ruffled your hair over at INTPc. There is no beauty in killing others but the world isn't beautiful, and some people in the less comfortable parts of the world don't have that luxury to begin with.

So you'll have to excuse me for not being able to take you seriously. One thing you could do is post a few pics if your napalm burned, barbwire scarred body. That would at least give you fair ground to stand on for those opinions you expressed. :coffee:

No, I just don't like the idea of not being able to discuss an idea. If you don't like it or think it is stupid then please point out why in whatever main ideas I have. Don't troll or ridicule me for attempting to discuss an idea. Not all ideas are going to be great, but some will. This is what I meant by INTPc from my experience...and I don't think I have to have had to have been in a war to learn about the experiences and emotions of others that have been in a war. It isn't even about that.

And look, I was inspired by an idea and attempted to spill it out into the OP of the thread. That wasn't my intention. I was inspired by the 'positive idea' of what good it can lead to further down the line. Some of it might seem stupid in that regard since I seem to be glorifying war; I got excited by idea that misery and pain lead to good things further down the line - the idea that the struggles of mankind lead to good. It's just a nice thought to me...to think that someone who has been torn by conflict, although broken and torn, will have progressed mankind towards peaceful means. After learning to live homeless for about a year now because I can't sleep in apartments (noise makes crazy and can't afford it anyway) and feel very anxious if I have to live with anyone or talk to anyone for long periods of time (can't live with someone) I have finally found a way to get enough peace of mind that I don't get severely depressed and think about suicide. But I get tired and it still feels like a huge struggle. I had a problem in the past with chronic fatigue resulting from apartments and living with people. I'm like an animal, movements and human beings set my adrenaline off. I'm a little crazy. And I kind of paralleled that with the idea of this thread. It doesn't at all compare to being in a war, but I was thinking about the parallel of struggle and aggression of human beings. It's a nice thought.

But I still hold by the idea that human beings like to have a certain measure of security. I think this security manifests itself into governments and laws that keep people in a certain security box. Once a box has been set, it has to be destroyed if another box is going to be set. War destroys the box. Without war, the security of the box stays, even if that security is a harmful one. Freedom isn't free...you have to fight for what you need and want...that's life...and in the worst cases...that's war...and I do understand that. What's nice about democracies is that the box becomes very versatile...but it's still just a box...with its everlasting limitations. War has the potential to set a better box, one that will reduce future wars and give more people what they need and want out of life, even if that's part of a changing philosophy.

Edit: I see no reason to believe that this isn't the progression that wars follow. We have come from building castles and fortresses and spending our time killing each other as a norm to building complex societies that don't revolve around how you can kill your enemy and take and use what they have. To get to this point people had to stand up to those in power that won't back down without a fight and have a war and win it. If they did nothing, would anything have changed? Does anyone at least understand what I'm talking about?
 
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Chunes

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Since when are murder, destruction, death, and chaos considered to be beautiful (if your not a psychopath)?

If we did not suffer these things, we'd be unable to understand the concepts of creation, life, and order. I wouldn't say war itself is beautiful at all. It's ugly and hateful. But the picture war helps paint in the grand scheme of things is indeed beautiful.
 

WildCard

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I understand that war can lead to more peaceful, beautiful things. And I think the OP is on to something when he says that those who haven't experience war, and those who haven't been exposed to its effects are more prone to have it.

However, I don't find war beautiful. I have been exposed to rifle fire, mace, explosions, and trained to kill a human being effeciently. As a matter of fact, the hairs on the back of my neck still stand up when I fire my rifle, or hear shots.

Can war lead to better things, yes. Do I wish there was an alternative to it? Absolutely.
 

entropie

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[YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gHECKJSAnE"].[/YOUTUBE]

Nice version btw :)
 

Little Linguist

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I have NEVER NEVER NEVER understood some people's glorification of war. Ugh. Disgusting.

These people are generally people who haven't got a goddamn clue what war is really all about. They have watched movies, read books, seen pictures of guys filled with camaraderie, watched some weirdo documentary or news broadcast and think war is this big, grand thing that brings people together despite differences. It's a time when no one gives a rat's ass if you're this or that because we're all fighting for *ahem*

*drum roll*

THE CAUSE!

FUCK IT!

I'd like to see these guys in a real war. They'd probably be the ones shitting in their pants when the battle starts and barfing when they see their best friend's organs get blown to bits.

So shut it with this blah blah blah war brings out the best in people. DAMN.

/end rant

Anyway, this wasn't a reaction to anyone in particular or even here, but I have seen/heard so MANY people do this and ugh.

Now, sure, I respect soldiers who get up and fight. And I think they SHOULD be remembered and honored. But that doesn't mean bloody dream about being a soldier in another damned world war. Gosh, there are boundaries, you know.
 

Chloe

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when i was a kid i grew up playing with this:
1hr91J.jpg



[we had it at home and called it kinder egg]

not beautiful.
 

You

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War is interesting and necessary. That doesn't equal beautiful. I won't elaborte because I got shit to do.
 
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