War is Beautiful

[Sniffles]

"It is well that war is so terrible -- lest we should grow too fond of it."
--Robert E. Lee

I think this is a valid point in this issue, cause there is actually a certain aesthetic appeal to war - we saw that in WWI when huge crowds cheered joyfully at the outbreak of war, seeing it as some kind of adventerous break from their mundane lives. Ernst Jünger talks about this on the first pages of his wartime memoirs Storm of Steel:

Grown up in an era of security, we shared a yearning for danger, for the experience of the extraordinary. We were enraptured by war. We had set out in a rain of flowers, in a drunken atmosphere of blood and roses. Surely the war had to supply us with what we wanted; the great, the overwhelming, the hallowed experience. We thought of it as manly, as action, a merry duelling party on flowered, blood-bedewed meadows. 'No finer death in all the world than...' Anything to participate, not to have to stay at home!

This probably sums up best what people often mean when they speak of the "beauty" of war. It's a yearning very deep within human nature, and in fairness there is a certain legitimacy to that yearning. The question become how does one channel that yearning to more constructive ends. That is why codes of honour - such as Chivalry and Bushido - play such a prominent role in this context, cause it seeks to do just that. And one prominent feature of such codes does include a certain desire to avoid violence unless absolutely necessary. Sun Tzu noted that the best victory is one that's achieved without fighting. The founder of Akido(a martial art practiced by many militaries), Morihei Ueshiba, was a dedicated pacifist for much of his life. He remarked:

"The Way of the Warrior has been misunderstood. It is not a means to kill and destroy others. Those who seek to compete and better one another are making a terrible mistake. To smash, injure, or destroy is the worst thing a human being can do. The real Way of a Warrior is to prevent such slaughter - it is the Art of Peace, the power of love."

So a proper understanding of war, even of its positive aspects, includes a certain revulsion against its horrible nature. This goes against both the childish glorification of war as purely postive but also the sentimenal rejection of war as purely negative.

 

[Unique]

Copy/pasting dictionary definitions isn't really an argument. Beauty is a subjective concept, not the first google result for 'beauty definition'.

To bring myself down to your level:

id·i·ot
/ˈɪdiət/ [id-ee-uht]
–noun
1.
an utterly foolish or senseless person.
2.
Psychology . a person of the lowest order in a former classification of mental retardation, having a mental age of less than three years old and an intelligence quotient under 25.

So where did I say that beauty isn't subjective or even imply it? Even the dictonary implies its subjective

You clearly missed the point which was that if you truely understand "war" and truely understand "beauty" you would be an idiot to think thats its beautiful

I could very easily rattle off about 50 reasons only a complete fucking moron would find war even remotely beautiful but I'm not going to do that cause frankly it should be obvious

So I pose my question to you

Why do you care if I'm saying that people who are calling war "beatiful" idiots?

Are you one of them?

Wow, good for you

To world peace then.... or not?

 

[Manis]

If a person could "truely understand" beauty it wouldn't be a subjective thing, now would it? You're contradicting yourself.

It's quite clear that we have different ideas of what beauty is. I don't really care if yours is closer to the dictionary definition, I'm not an "idiot" or a "moron" simply for having a different opinion to you. I do understand where you're coming from, war is full of nasty things that no emotionally mature person could ever find pleasant or 'beautiful' in the conventional, aesthetic sense of the word. An emotional knee-jerk sense of revulsion seems to be the most common response to the suggestion that war might be beautiful in any way, judging from this thread at least. That's good really, it's better that we all have that aversion to war and unnecessary suffering. I appreciate such strength of feeling but righteous indignation always brings up the blinkers in people and makes it really difficult to get a point across.

When I say that war is beautiful I don't mean that it's nice in any way or that I get some kind of sick pleasure from any of the terrible things that happen to people in war. I also don't mean it in the sense that Peguy talks about above, i.e. that warfare is romantic and honourable. You might not agree with me on this but I think that anything of any great consequence can be considered beautiful, even if those consequences are bad ones. I realise that this definition isn't included in the dictionary you cited (or the dead tree one I keep on my shelf) but to show that I'm not alone in this I'd advise you to go visit an art gallery. You'll find countless depictions of nasty things, brutal battles, fights, executions, torture, people dying of disease or starvation, etc.. People find paintings of this sort beautiful, not solely because of the painter's artistry and certainly not because they like the idea of these things happening to people. That's just an example, but you're free to pick it apart if you want.

 

[Sniffles]

Is this the sort of thing you're talking about Manis?
Chinese artistic depictions of the Peoples' Liberation Army

 

[Sniffles]

Here's probably a very good example of what Manis maybe getting at, both the music-lyrics and the paintings in the video.

[youtube="4qXVjcbWIF8"]Napoleonic French anthem[/youtube]

Victory singing
Opens for us the gates
Liberty guides our steps
And from the North to the South
The war trumpet
Signals the hour of the fight
Tremble, enemies of France
Kings drunk on blood and pride
The sovereign People comes forth
Tyrants go down to your graves

The Republic is calling us
Let's know how to vanquish or let's know how to perish
A Frenchman must live for her
For her a Frenchman must die

Do not fear that our motherly eyes should weep
From us begone, cowardly grief!
We must triumph when you bear arms
It is kings who have to weep
We gave you life
Warriors, it is no longer yours
All your days belong to the Motherland
It is your mother above all

The Republic is calling us
Let's know how to vanquish or let's know how to perish
A Frenchman must live for her
For her a Frenchman must die

May the fatherly iron arm, the hand of the braves
Think of us on the Field of Mars
Bless with the blood of the kings and of the slaves
the arms blessed by your elder
And bringing back home
wounds and virtues
come and close our lids
when tyrants are no more

The Republic is calling us
Let's know how to vanquish or let's know how to perish
A Frenchman must live for her
For her a Frenchman must die

The fates of Barra and Viala fill us with envy
They died, but they prevailed
The coward plagued with years never experienced life
He who dies for the People has lived
You are brave, we are too
Guide us against Tyrants
Republicans are men
Slaves are children

The Republic is calling us
Let's know how to vanquish or let's know how to perish
A Frenchman must live for her
For her a Frenchman must die

Leave, valiant husbands! Battles are your feasts
Leave, models for warriors
We shall pick flowers to crown your heads
Our hands shall braid laurels
And if the temple of memory (death)
Should open for your victorious manes
Our voices shall sing your glory
Our wombs shall bear your avengers

The Republic is calling us
Let's know how to vanquish or let's know how to perish
A Frenchman must live for her
For her a Frenchman must die

And we, sister of the heroes, we who of Hymenaios [marriage]
ignore the loveable knots
if, for uniting themselves some day with our destiny
a citizen would express the wish
let them come back in our walls
embellished with glory and liberty
and that their blood, in battles
would have been spilled for equality

The Republic is calling us
Let's know how to vanquish or let's know how to perish
A Frenchman must live for her
For her a Frenchman must die

On the iron, before God, we swear to our fathers
to our wives, to our sisters
to our representatives, to our sons, to our mothers
that we shall annihilate oppressors
Everywhere, into the deep night
by sinking the infamous royalty
the French shall give to the world
peace and liberty

The Republic is calling us
Let's know how to vanquish or let's know how to perish
A Frenchman must live for her
For her a Frenchman must die

 

[Manis]

What I'm talking about is individuals' perceptions of beauty, I don't think you can really provide examples of that. Those are mostly propaganda images so were made to conjure up specific feelings (pride, comradeship etc.) in people and will naturally appeal to the target audience, but it's certainly possible for other people to find beauty in them for their own reasons. Do you find them beautiful?

 

[Sniffles]

What I'm talking about is individuals' perceptions of beauty, I don't think you can really provide examples of that.

What are you talking about? How is that even essentially different than what I showed?

 

[Manis]

I just didn't think those images illustrated my earlier point, Peguy. Being propaganda, they were made with the express purpose of motivating people to support one side in a conflict - I was talking about a more general appreciation for the gravity and consequence of war. Beauty in depictions of war wasn't a major part of my argument and I didn't think examples were really necessary. Simple.

 

[Lark]

Before welfare got popular the big thing was warfare, everyone was into it.

 

[Sniffles]

Manis, are you simply being a contrarian here?

 

[kyuuei]

To me.. War is something that sounds beautiful everywhere outside of a war zone.

 

[A window to the soul]

Like the seasons, wars begin, end, and begin again. Who can understand or stop the raging fire in a man's soul that drives him beyond mercy for his fellow man? Right or wrong, if war must be, then I see the will to die fighting for a greater good as honorable and beautiful.

 

[Manis]

Manis, are you simply being a contrarian here?

I do that a lot but that's definitely not what I'm doing here. If you're going to take issue with what I've said please make it something specific. I get the feeling we're operating on totally different wavelengths.

 

[Sniffles]

I do that a lot but that's definitely not what I'm doing here. If you're going to take issue with what I've said please make it something specific. I get the feeling we're operating on totally different wavelengths.

For one thing you seem to keep contradicting yourself, insisting you're talking about something that actually has no examples of. You mentioned aesthetic depictions in art, and then claim that's not what you're talking about -but again you admit you can't provide an actual example of what you're talking about. So that really opens(or rather has already opened) the question of whether you really know what you're talking about. I was originally willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, but now I must join those who question your competence to discuss this issue. You also admitted that you often just play the contrarian role, but insist you're not doing it here. I must question that too quite frankly.

 

[Manis]

Okay, let's clear this up.

I have, throughout this discussion, been talking about people's subjective appreciation and definitions of beauty, which is varies wildly from person to person. I've been trying to counter all those posts lashing out at the OP from a very narrow and sentimental perspective (war is nasty -> war is not beautiful -> OP is evil/stupid/retarded). I like to sort out imbalances like that, it's something I try to do a lot - that does not mean I'm playing devil's advocate or being a contrarian for the sake of it. The main reason I defended the idea that war can be considered beautiful is because I know for a fact that it can be, because I do find it beautiful in some ways. Unless someone's willing to assert that beauty is an objective, universal truth rather than something subjective then I don't see anything wrong with my argument. When I spoke about artistic representations of war it was merely to demonstrate the concept that people can find something beautiful in them that isn't related to their aesthetic qualities.

What you seem to have a problem with is my rejection of the 'examples' you provided. Those images were all things a person might find beautiful, sure enough, whomever sees them will have their own reaction to them (as beauty is in the eye of the beholder). But I can not look at those pictures and gain an understanding of your or anyone else's idea of beauty, peguy. Short of a vulcan mind-meld such things can't be demonstrated in a direct, sensory way - that is why I didn't want you associating your examples with my argument. If I had thought such pictures would help people understand what I was saying I would have provided some myself. I certainly didn't want someone who didn't understand my argument (and still seems not to) helping with examples that don't actually contribute to anyone's understanding. I could have responded with "thanks, but no thanks" but I didn't want to be rude.

You've not spoken a word about my original argument or anything I've said that's important to it. I have to be honest, you're really getting my goat with these accusations. I hope I've managed to satisfy some of them one way or the other.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

I'm glad I finally decided to read through this minefield of a thread.

Was is indeed beautiful, just as it is horrible and tragic.

War has beautiful apects:
- comraderie
- honor
- (when justified) fighting for what is right, and on behalf of those who can't fight for themselves
- self sacrifice (I know of no greater zenith of justice and honor than self sacrifice)

War has terrible aspects:
- cruelty
- the creation horrifying new technologies which kill ever more efficiently
- death, innocent and guilty alike
- loss, unfathomable loss

War will never be all bad or all good. The world just isn't and never will be that black and white. There will always be a soldier who saves a child from a burning building just as there will be the soldier who will shoot an unarmed enemy who has already surrendered.

 

[Ginkgo]

I'm glad I finally decided to read through this minefield of a thread.

Was is indeed beautiful, just as it is horrible and tragic.

War has beautiful apects:
- comraderie
- honor
- (when justified) fighting for what is right, and on behalf of those who can't fight for themselves
- self sacrifice (I know of no greater zenith of justice and honor than self sacrifice)

War has terrible aspects:
- cruelty
- the creation horrifying new technologies which kill ever more efficiently
- death, innocent and guilty alike
- loss, unfathomable loss

War will never be all bad or all good. The world just isn't and never will be that black and white. There will always be a soldier who saves a child from a burning building just as there will be the soldier who will shoot an unarmed enemy who has already surrendered.

I was thinking this same thing earlier today, almost word for word.

 

[KDude]

I'm glad I finally decided to read through this minefield of a thread.

Was is indeed beautiful, just as it is horrible and tragic.

In other words, Sgt. Elias is beautiful. Sgt. Barnes isn't.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

Platoon ftw.

 

[Condor]

I too have taken the time to read through the thread - a couple of times. I understand what the OP is stating, and the points made about the rebuilding of a better, more "aware" society after a war can be considered beautiful - although it isn't the word I'd choose. I can't speak intelligently about the overall after effects of war, only my experience with it. It's hard to focus on the overall when the experience has been so intense - and tragic. Cost takes on a new meaning when the cost has the names and faces of two people I knew. I'm sure that doesn't make me anyone special to anyone posting here, and I guess what I'm saying is that I don't know about the "beauty" of the end of a war and the period thereafter. All I know is that two people I knew are gone because of it.