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  1. #51
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    To me.. War is something that sounds beautiful everywhere outside of a war zone.
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  2. #52
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    Like the seasons, wars begin, end, and begin again. Who can understand or stop the raging fire in a man's soul that drives him beyond mercy for his fellow man? Right or wrong, if war must be, then I see the will to die fighting for a greater good as honorable and beautiful.

  3. #53
    Member Manis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Manis, are you simply being a contrarian here?
    I do that a lot but that's definitely not what I'm doing here. If you're going to take issue with what I've said please make it something specific. I get the feeling we're operating on totally different wavelengths.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manis View Post
    I do that a lot but that's definitely not what I'm doing here. If you're going to take issue with what I've said please make it something specific. I get the feeling we're operating on totally different wavelengths.
    For one thing you seem to keep contradicting yourself, insisting you're talking about something that actually has no examples of. You mentioned aesthetic depictions in art, and then claim that's not what you're talking about -but again you admit you can't provide an actual example of what you're talking about. So that really opens(or rather has already opened) the question of whether you really know what you're talking about. I was originally willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, but now I must join those who question your competence to discuss this issue. You also admitted that you often just play the contrarian role, but insist you're not doing it here. I must question that too quite frankly.

  5. #55
    Member Manis's Avatar
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    Okay, let's clear this up.

    I have, throughout this discussion, been talking about people's subjective appreciation and definitions of beauty, which is varies wildly from person to person. I've been trying to counter all those posts lashing out at the OP from a very narrow and sentimental perspective (war is nasty -> war is not beautiful -> OP is evil/stupid/retarded). I like to sort out imbalances like that, it's something I try to do a lot - that does not mean I'm playing devil's advocate or being a contrarian for the sake of it. The main reason I defended the idea that war can be considered beautiful is because I know for a fact that it can be, because I do find it beautiful in some ways. Unless someone's willing to assert that beauty is an objective, universal truth rather than something subjective then I don't see anything wrong with my argument. When I spoke about artistic representations of war it was merely to demonstrate the concept that people can find something beautiful in them that isn't related to their aesthetic qualities.

    What you seem to have a problem with is my rejection of the 'examples' you provided. Those images were all things a person might find beautiful, sure enough, whomever sees them will have their own reaction to them (as beauty is in the eye of the beholder). But I can not look at those pictures and gain an understanding of your or anyone else's idea of beauty, peguy. Short of a vulcan mind-meld such things can't be demonstrated in a direct, sensory way - that is why I didn't want you associating your examples with my argument. If I had thought such pictures would help people understand what I was saying I would have provided some myself. I certainly didn't want someone who didn't understand my argument (and still seems not to) helping with examples that don't actually contribute to anyone's understanding. I could have responded with "thanks, but no thanks" but I didn't want to be rude.

    You've not spoken a word about my original argument or anything I've said that's important to it. I have to be honest, you're really getting my goat with these accusations. I hope I've managed to satisfy some of them one way or the other.

  6. #56
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    I'm glad I finally decided to read through this minefield of a thread.

    Was is indeed beautiful, just as it is horrible and tragic.

    War has beautiful apects:
    - comraderie
    - honor
    - (when justified) fighting for what is right, and on behalf of those who can't fight for themselves
    - self sacrifice (I know of no greater zenith of justice and honor than self sacrifice)

    War has terrible aspects:
    - cruelty
    - the creation horrifying new technologies which kill ever more efficiently
    - death, innocent and guilty alike
    - loss, unfathomable loss

    War will never be all bad or all good. The world just isn't and never will be that black and white. There will always be a soldier who saves a child from a burning building just as there will be the soldier who will shoot an unarmed enemy who has already surrendered.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    I'm glad I finally decided to read through this minefield of a thread.

    Was is indeed beautiful, just as it is horrible and tragic.

    War has beautiful apects:
    - comraderie
    - honor
    - (when justified) fighting for what is right, and on behalf of those who can't fight for themselves
    - self sacrifice (I know of no greater zenith of justice and honor than self sacrifice)

    War has terrible aspects:
    - cruelty
    - the creation horrifying new technologies which kill ever more efficiently
    - death, innocent and guilty alike
    - loss, unfathomable loss

    War will never be all bad or all good. The world just isn't and never will be that black and white. There will always be a soldier who saves a child from a burning building just as there will be the soldier who will shoot an unarmed enemy who has already surrendered.
    I was thinking this same thing earlier today, almost word for word.

  8. #58
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    I'm glad I finally decided to read through this minefield of a thread.

    Was is indeed beautiful, just as it is horrible and tragic.
    In other words, Sgt. Elias is beautiful. Sgt. Barnes isn't.

  9. #59
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    Platoon ftw.

  10. #60
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    I too have taken the time to read through the thread - a couple of times. I understand what the OP is stating, and the points made about the rebuilding of a better, more "aware" society after a war can be considered beautiful - although it isn't the word I'd choose. I can't speak intelligently about the overall after effects of war, only my experience with it. It's hard to focus on the overall when the experience has been so intense - and tragic. Cost takes on a new meaning when the cost has the names and faces of two people I knew. I'm sure that doesn't make me anyone special to anyone posting here, and I guess what I'm saying is that I don't know about the "beauty" of the end of a war and the period thereafter. All I know is that two people I knew are gone because of it.
    ...doesn't work or play well with others...

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