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Thread: A question mainly for Christians... (others are welcome)

  1. #21


    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    It's got to be more organic, natural, and sensible than this hodgepodge of excruciating damnation vs eternal bliss.
    If this is true then there must have been people in the past who have had more sensible views. Perhaps our view on the afterlife should not come from your typical Sunday morning preacher who is mostly concerned about how he is going to make the next church mortgage payment.
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  2. #22
    Senior Member Array Moiety's Avatar
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    Answering the topic question: I consider myself independent from my family and not bound by their bad choices. I didn't ask to get born within my family and I don't like to be partial when it comes to choices that damn you to Helll.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Life doesn't have to last forever to be precious; and in fact perhaps endings make life even more precious. The choices we make as human beings are even more amazing and reflective of goodness if there is no guaranteed reward for making them.

  3. #23
    ⒺⓉⒷ Array Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I can certainly choose to buy into someone ELSE'S priorities and view of existence... but why the hell would I want to do that? If nothing can be proven to be true, at least now I'm a coherent person, a congruent person, with my inner and outer aligned. Before I was living a fractured existence, with an incongruent identity; I was a fake even by my own standards.

    I think it would be different if we could conclusively say that a particular deity was provable and true, vs another. But we can't.

    This puts you in a very different position from one who has a deep-rooted faith, because even the process of questioning it would in this case mean more that they sought to understand the true meaning behind the apparently contradictory information they had about that deity - to try to discern the will and purpose of God and make them more comprehensible.

    Like I said, that's how I spent the first 20-25 years of my life. I was very devout, very sincere, very faithful... but very tormented by the inconsistencies.

    At some point, where you're faced with increasing cognitive dissonance, you have to reevaluate and decide if your initial framework is actually wrong and you have to start from scratch.

    So that is what I did. The old model was no longer salvageable IMO and at that point it takes an act of courage to scrap it, take shit from all the other people who now label you as an apostate, and start over.

    In view of what you've said here, and a lot of other stuff I've seen you say elsewhere, I'm a little unsure why you bother holding on to the "Christian" part of your identity. You might be culturally and by background a Christian (perhaps this is why you hold on to it) but your own beliefs seem pretty much wholly agnostic at this stage. You haven't exactly rejected faith outright, but appear largely dismissive of its relevance to how you live now.

    You're totally right in that the two can be at war at each other. I'm only human and I tend to flip around and around within them, back and forth. I think it's also pretty evident in my personality even on this forum, where I probably seem to swing between social compassion and detached self-reliance; people can't tell whether I'm T or F sometimes, it's hard to get a bead on me, I suppose. I think life can be viewed through both lenses simultaneously, although there might seem to be a radical difference between both views.
    I can relate to you a lot in some ways, as far as the struggle.

    Though I was raised basically in an agnostic atmosphere, but influenced by old-school Christianity through older relatives and others, yet then determined it was all ridoculous when I entered teens in the 80's and saw the politically active preachers and their moral-political ideologies and attacks on science, and how it was all meshed together into this grand "truth" that they had a lock on, and the "enemies" of God opposed.
    I ended up embracig parts of it in my 20's, because the non-christian world turned out to be disillusioning and hypocritical as well, especially for someone with AS, who has trouble fitting in.

    Still, I encountered all of the unanswered qustions that Christians try to gloss over, especially regarding why life is allowed to remain in this supposedly "fallen" state seemingly forever, with everyone around me supposedly goping to Hell, and I was supposed to help get them saved somehow ("witness" and/or "pray for them") and when the "new world" was supposed to begin "soon" after the Bible was written.

    So I ended up modifying the views after I discivered a view that seems to better explain many of those things.
    Comprehensive Grace - Tim King

    The condemnation that leads to Hell was a product of the dispensation of Law (What is commonly called the "Old Covenant"), and it ended when the Temple was destroyed in AD70 (which was "soon", relatively, from that age), and in the NT period, the two covenants overlapped, so grace was available, but you had to believe (and obey) to receive it and come from under the condemnation of the Law.

    Once the system of Law was completely removed, symbolically, then grace spread to all, God withdrew special revelation (signs/wonders/miracles) and apparently, also direct guidance of the Church, which as we see history shows, spiralled rapidly out of control after the first century.

    So this explains everything. Why no miracles anymore, why no return of Christ (there may have been a visible appearance in AD70, and the antichrist and all those other figures were also people from that period).

    Of course, it doesn't prove that any of this is true to begin with, but even with that, it again softens that fact that there is no more clear proof to make people belive to "save" them. (Christians often appeal to Romans chapter 1 and 2 and claim there is enough evidence in conscience, nature, and "general revelation", but that just didn't seem to do it for me and anyone I've tried to witness to. So it was like a big slap in the face when it all seems so hard to believe at times, even when we desperately seek).

    So if nothing more; my one prayer is that this is true, and that it is not Hell for nearly all, or complete nothingness after death.

    As for type, your personal introspection does look so much like INFP/Fi, especially the part about congruence and inconsistency.
    But I can see the Ti perspective ultimately under it ("frameworks", etc. and Ti actually deals in consistency also, of course, though it is more logically focused).

    Looks like the "Crows Nest" shift, when under stress, and Ti doesn't solve the problem, and it is replaced directly by Fi. Also, you did come out heavily Supine in the ICA temperament discussions, and that will also make a T seem more F-ish. And then, to have to go against an environment that was more religious than mine, and in directions more radical.
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  4. #24
    Senior Member Array Lark's Avatar
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    Provided there's no libertarians or capitalists in heaven I dont mind who's there.

  5. #25
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    I for one could not live in a "heaven" knowingly that there are billions of people suffering an endless torture.

    BUT the thing under OP's name is my SIG D

  6. #26
    Honor Thy Inferior Array Such Irony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Both choices lead to pain. I reckon the pain in hell would be more serious.
    Heaven is supposedly eternal bliss so I think somehow the pain of not seeing your family members again in hell would somehow be wiped out. See what penny89 wrote below:

    Quote Originally Posted by penny89 View Post
    What if you didn't actually remember your family while in heaven?
    If god is omnipotent and all that jazz how hard would it be for him to just selectively blank your memory of ever having loved ones at all? Then you would not miss them. To me it would seem that this would be a prerequisite to paradise.
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  7. #27
    lab rat extraordinaire Array CrystalViolet's Avatar
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    I kinda like the thought of passing away into nothiness like a puff of fresh air. It is kinda a beautiful concept, however I'm kinda attached to my earthly bonds as well, for the moment. No matter how horrible this life is, there is beauty to be seen every where. Even if is just sparkles in concrete being reflected in the street lamps.
    I'd like to think there is a heaven, or a silver veil to pass through, not so fussed on the concept of hell. I came alone into this world, whilist I've taken a fancy to dying in the arms of loved one, I will probabbly leave it alone too. My family just happened to be people who raised real family are those who I have taken into my heart, but we are all are essentially alone.(I believe in a collective consciousness any hoo, so earthly attachments no longer hold true or are needed.)
    Currently submerged under an avalanche of books and paper work. I may come back up for air from time to time.
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  8. #28
    Mr. Blue Array entropie's Avatar
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    Hell of course, I'ld be glad. Then I'ld now a 100 % that we will go to the same place
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    "How dreadful!" cried Lord Henry. "I can stand brute force, but brute reason is quite unbearable. There is something unfair about its use. It is hitting below the intellect."
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  9. #29
    Let me count the ways Array HelenOfTroy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Yeah -- if hell is supposedly like getting boiled in lava for eternity (at least as far as the cliche goes), I don't think you'll even have the ability to think about how you're even with any other people... and it would be even worse, since you if you could retain some level of conscious thought you'd be aware that people you loved were suffering even as you were suffering... for eternity.

    But then again, I don't think that hell (if it exists) would be like that per se. Nor would I think that people who end up in hell would be thinking about how other people feel, or they wouldn't have ended up there in the first place...

    Ha, this made me wonder about what the updated/modern hell would be like. Given the fact that capital punishment and torture (not sure on torture dates but physical punishments were going on in schools until the late 70's at least) by and large globally accepted at least until the late 60's early 70's.
    In a lot of predominantly Christian (and other) countries/cultures, this is now unacceptable.
    We now have Christian modernization; Christian rock bands, women priests (although i know there were priestesses in antiquity), gay vicars etc etc.

    So would the modern hell be more like an eternal asbo tag in an open prison, with councilling and drug rehibilation programs, with a possibility of it not being so eternal on the grounds of good behaivour, half of eternity and you might get the gold card to move on up.

    I'm just being silly of course
    "We knew he was someone who had a tragic flaw, that's where his greatness came from"

  10. #30
    Carerra Lu Array IZthe411's Avatar
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    You're assuming that all Christians believe that hell is a place of torment.

    Actually, the Hebrew and Greek words rendered hell (She'ol and Ha'des) refers to man's common grave.

    the Greek word Gehenna is the phrase people get confused with the above terms. The name derived from an actual place where they kept a fire burning and it's where they threw anything from everyday rubbish to condemned criminals who weren't deserving of a proper burial. It's completely used symbolically in the Bible to describe a complete destruction.

    Additionally, God says numerous times that the former things won't be called to mind. So if we do lose a loved one due to their disobedience, they along with all the pains of this current world we live in, will eventually be forgotten in place of better things.

    So my answer is bliss without em. My hope is they are there with me, though, but I can't live for them in that respect.

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