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  1. #71
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nocturne View Post
    NFs are Gods? The universe has an irritating habit of ignoring what we think is true in favour of what is actually true, and we all suffer when what we think is true does not correspond to what is actually true. The universe forces us to make decisions and act, and we all choose how to act relative to what we think is true, even when we recognise that such thoughts are human and fallible. Sometimes we are wrong, and we call this "making a mistake".

    That is, unless we are God, and what is actually true depends on what we think is true. God doesn't make mistakes.
    You just figured out why INFJs can never be wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  2. #72
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nocturne View Post
    I have no idea what you are talking about. A proposition is either true or false i.e. either corresponds to the facts or does not correspond to the facts, "parameters" be damned!

    There is an irritating tendency to confuse the truth of a proposition with our ability to confirm, verify or test it. The latter are all very interesting problems regarding the methodology of investigation, but the truth would be true even if nobody existed, so such methods are not integral to a discussion about truth, which is always absolute. If a proposition is not absolutely true, then it is false.
    So the truth is true regardless of whether or not you can establish it to be true? Sounds dangerously like an excuse to use an "authority" to establish what is and what is not.

    Surely you recognise that for something to be accepted as true then it has to be proved true or reasoned as probably true to the satisfaction of people? Sure you'll get the nay sayers who will not accept something but a truth which only you see and only you can know is a bit like being out of touch is it not?

    You can have one man who is correct when all others are saying he is wrong but it more likely that someone will agree with him if indeed he is correct. For others to agree however there must be something there for them to base their agreement on. If not then they are merely saying "yes you're right" without ever understanding why they are right or if they should agree or not.

    Truth does exists without proof, that much is true (oh dear this will be complicated) but for such truth to be communicated it must be seen as true by another or proven to be true regardless of their conception of it. Ergo truth and proof go hand in hand.

    As for parameters, 1+1=2 only within our on established parameters of mathematics and our understanding of the nuances of those parameters. 2 fence panels plus two fence panels does equal four fence panels but if built into a fence it equals five fence posts.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  3. #73
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Unless you believe in a higher power, truth is defined by humans. It is an abstract concept that exists only within the minds of humans. If humans did not exist, then it would have absolutely no relevance and would be as good as non existent since there would be nobody to recognize it. The only reason people can percieve that it would exist without us, is because we are here to recognize it. But it isn't matter, and it has no physical or tangible properties, so it only significant within human consciousness.

    Am I wrong?
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  4. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    Unless you believe in a higher power, truth is defined by humans. It is an abstract concept that exists only within the minds of humans. If humans did not exist, then it would have absolutely no relevance and would be as good as non existent since there would be nobody to recognize it. The only reason people can percieve that it would exist without us, is because we are here to recognize it. But it isn't matter, and it has no physical or tangible properties, so it only significant within human consciousness.

    Am I wrong?
    This does not say that there isn't an absolute truth, only that it doesn't matter unless human (or animal, or alien) minds are there to figure out out. (This is up for grabs, though, depending on what is needed for something to 'matter".)

  5. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zergling View Post
    This does not say that there isn't an absolute truth, only that it doesn't matter unless human (or animal, or alien) minds are there to figure out out. (This is up for grabs, though, depending on what is needed for something to 'matter".)
    Think about biological evolution. The truth matters, even if there is nobody there to know it. Indeed, if it did not matter, then there would be nobody to know it
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

  6. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by nocturne View Post
    Think about biological evolution. The truth matters, even if there is nobody there to know it. Indeed, if it did not matter, then there would be nobody to know it
    Whether something "matters" or not depends on opinion, so will just end up being up to the person talking about it. in your case, it does, to someone else, some things will not "matter".

  7. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zergling View Post
    Whether something "matters" or not depends on opinion, so will just end up being up to the person talking about it. in your case, it does, to someone else, some things will not "matter".
    Yeah, well, kinda. My last post was mostly written for rhetorical punch. That said, for most people, it matters that stuff matters, so the truth matters, even before there was anyone around for it to matter to, or else there would be nobody for anything to matter to, and it matters to people that stuff matters.
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

  8. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zergling View Post
    This does not say that there isn't an absolute truth, only that it doesn't matter unless human (or animal, or alien) minds are there to figure out out. (This is up for grabs, though, depending on what is needed for something to 'matter".)
    There's a truth because and only because humans created the concept. It is a perception! It seems silly to me to care about the existence of things that only have relevance to their creators. We might as well be arguing that the concept of "cold" would still exist if all humans were gone. Cold is the absence of heat as measured by human scales. If there was no human to feel it and thus percieve it, then what would cold ultimately be? It's nothing but the parameters that humans have assigned to sensory experiences. Truth is nothing but the parameters that humans have assigned to situational experiences. Without somebody to percieve it, it has absolutely no meaning.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  9. #79
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    to probably have the least eloquent response here

    two guys get into a fist fight in a crowded bar- it started with a disagreement, escalated to pushing, then to shoving and then a full out fistfight broke out. The bouncer tries to break up the fight and the cops are called. The cops want to know who started the fight so they ask the two men- each man totally beleives that he's right in saying that the other man started the fight- after all, there had to be a reason that they were throwing punches with such enthusiasm. The police move on to ask the other patrons of the bar what they saw, and though most of them saw the fight, no two patrons have the same answer.

    If we can't answer a question as simple as who started the bar fight, how are we supposed to be capable of having an absolute truth? Absolute truth would have to be a human invention, I am assuming, since animals have no such concept. Our truth is based on our 5 senses and our brains, and illusions prove that those things are not always right *shrug* it just doesn't make SENSE!

    (note- a better response existed, but when I hit Post Quick Reply I was taken to the damned screen that announced that the site was having issues )
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  10. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    to probably have the least eloquent response here

    two guys get into a fist fight in a crowded bar- it started with a disagreement, escalated to pushing, then to shoving and then a full out fistfight broke out. The bouncer tries to break up the fight and the cops are called. The cops want to know who started the fight so they ask the two men- each man totally beleives that he's right in saying that the other man started the fight- after all, there had to be a reason that they were throwing punches with such enthusiasm. The police move on to ask the other patrons of the bar what they saw, and though most of them saw the fight, no two patrons have the same answer.

    If we can't answer a question as simple as who started the bar fight, how are we supposed to be capable of having an absolute truth? Absolute truth would have to be a human invention, I am assuming, since animals have no such concept. Our truth is based on our 5 senses and our brains, and illusions prove that those things are not always right *shrug* it just doesn't make SENSE!

    (note- a better response existed, but when I hit Post Quick Reply I was taken to the damned screen that announced that the site was having issues )
    The bolded part explains the entire difference between the opposing points of view. I think that truth exists even if we can't figure it out. Something was the last straw that set one of those guys off, even if nobody knows what it was.
    Everybody have fun tonight. Everybody Wang Chung tonight.

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