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  1. #51

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    I think we are horribly confusing "truth" with "what we perceive/believe is true."

    I firmly believe the existence of "truth" is independent of the seeker/observer of truth. Of course "what we believe is true" is always tied to who we are. So we have human physics, and human mathematics, etc.

    In short, what we perceive to be truth is not truth.

    Humans need symbols, and abstractions simply to perceive/interpret the truth. These symbols and abstractions are clumsy and inaccurate. We may need to inflate, exaggerate, abstract our descriptions of truth in an attempt to convey what we believe to be true more accurately. However, those inflations, exaggerations, and abstractions are not more true.

    The truth exists outside of ourselves.

    The existence of the universe was true before any humans (and human descriptions) were ever available. The existence of the inverse will be true when no human beings are left. jmo.

    If a bus hits you without you seeing, hearing, feeling or perceiving it in anyway (suppose you were sufficiently anesthetized), can it still kill you?

    It is my belief, that morality is the same way (though my confidence in this belief is less than that for truth).

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
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  2. #52
    Senior Member swordpath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphosis View Post
    When I said it, I meant, "Original Post." Normally, "Original Poster." It's more about ethics than truth.
    So basically, the the thread debate doesn't pertain to the thread subject?

  3. #53
    Per Ardua Metamorphosis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheBeatGoesOn View Post
    So basically, the the thread debate doesn't pertain to the thread subject?
    more so that the original thread debate didn't pertain to the thread title.
    "You will always be fond of me. I represent to you all the sins you never had the courage to commit."

    Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions, and can never pretend to any other office
    than to serve and obey them. - David Hume

  4. #54
    No me digas, che! Recoleta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphosis View Post
    more so that the original thread debate didn't pertain to the thread title.
    Yeah, what I wanted to talk about was absolute truth...although I can see that my OP does touch on absolute morality. I do see both as related, but different concepts...which became more evident as the thread progressed. What I was really trying to say in my OP was kinda along the lines of what FMWarner and Ygolo (and a few others) have touched on -- that I believe absolute truth does exist, and that it exists outside of us and what we perceive to be truth...and I was just trying to see how others approached the topic or what they thought about it etc.

    Looking back, I see now that my example in my OP doesn't fully apply to what I was trying to say...which I didn't realize until this thread matured and other ideas and thoughts were brought up and expanded upon. OK, so all cleared up? Official topic was meant to be absolute truth (although if absolute morality is brought up too, then fine)...I just wanted to start/use this thread as a sounding board.

  5. #55

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    truth: we are all human, we all feel pain, happiness, sadness, etc...

    on the question of having an absolute truth for morality, I would say the only measure is empathy:
    why shouldn't we hurt someone? because it is painful, we understand this pain and do not want pain, nor would anyone else.

    now how pain is defined is depending on the person who is receiving it, hence it is relative. Yet from a scientific perspective, we all come from the same elements, the same material (big bang theory) and there was a beginning to the universe. Hence we were created by something (God, science, whatever you believe). If everything we know is created by that thing, then our truths must be in some form a derivative of that creator's truths. So all of our relative truths hold some absolute truth (even the denial of an absolute truth, holds the absolute truth in the essence of its argument).

    There are already a few flaws which I know all you knit-picky critical thinkers will tear apart and I want you to challenge me because I love to play connect the dots and make irrelevant theories relevant
    INFJ, 2w1

    "I have learned silence from the talkative, toleration from the intolerant, and kindness from the unkind; yet, strange, I am ungrateful to those teachers. " - Khalil Gibran

  6. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    I think we are horribly confusing "truth" with "what we perceive/believe is true."

    I firmly believe the existence of "truth" is independent of the seeker/observer of truth. Of course "what we believe is true" is always tied to who we are. So we have human physics, and human mathematics, etc.

    In short, what we perceive to be truth is not truth.

    Humans need symbols, and abstractions simply to perceive/interpret the truth. These symbols and abstractions are clumsy and inaccurate. We may need to inflate, exaggerate, abstract our descriptions of truth in an attempt to convey what we believe to be true more accurately. However, those inflations, exaggerations, and abstractions are not more true.

    The truth exists outside of ourselves.

    The existence of the universe was true before any humans (and human descriptions) were ever available. The existence of the inverse will be true when no human beings are left. jmo.

    If a bus hits you without you seeing, hearing, feeling or perceiving it in anyway (suppose you were sufficiently anesthetized), can it still kill you?

    It is my belief, that morality is the same way (though my confidence in this belief is less than that for truth).
    This is what I was trying to say, but ygolo said it in about 3 jillion less words

  7. #57

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    okay thank you for re-stating the human condition, that everything we know has some form of subjectivity. You can even argue that nothing is real outside of your mind, that we are all creations of your mind. But is it possible to use subjective truths and build them up into an absolute truth as I argued in the previous post? If not, then is it even useful to discuss this topic if we are inevitably tied to living in subjective truths?

    (sry for the hint of criticism , I respect your opinions and am simply trying to further the discussion)
    INFJ, 2w1

    "I have learned silence from the talkative, toleration from the intolerant, and kindness from the unkind; yet, strange, I am ungrateful to those teachers. " - Khalil Gibran

  8. #58
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Ah certainty. The out streched hand of humnaity searching for that universal straw to hang onto, the nail in the wall from which we can hang our concept of reality.

    From here all I can see is probabilities and influences. Certainty would be so nice but I'm afraid it seems to elude us all.

    I guess that goes double for morals.

    It's all relative baby
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  9. #59
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Are you missing my point, or am I just misperceiving that you are?
    You had a point? Ahem:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer
    Is one a lie and one the truth? Are both lies? Are both true?
    I thought your post was more of an observation + question without a real point.

    Blasphemer. (You will burn for this, Angel!)
    I don't get the reference, but I expected the "Blasphemer" reaction. But I will continue to educate! I have a dream of a better world! One day all the people of the world will come together in perfect harmony and realize that books, movies, nay...ALL MEDIA have their respective strengths and weaknesses and cannot be directly compared to each other in such black and white terms as "better" or "worse". Then I will buy the world a coke and we will all hold hands and sing together.
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  10. #60
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Ah certainty. The out streched hand of humnaity searching for that universal straw to hang onto, the nail in the wall from which we can hang our concept of reality.

    From here all I can see is probabilities and influences. Certainty would be so nice but I'm afraid it seems to elude us all.
    It's so elusive, isn't it? Although if we had it, what would we have left to seek? Perhaps that's why we can't be certain... because if we were, what would we have left to influence?

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