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  1. #71
    All Natural! All Good!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beat View Post
    The question is geared towards you the individual, not a society. State your case.
    I tried "with religion" while growing up, but I find it much easier to live without (presently).

    I'm glad you asked this to the individual, Beat, because I think this varies greatly
    Strychnine is all-natural,
    So strychnine is all good.
    It's Godly and righteous,
    So eat it, you should.
    Who are you to refuse nature's will?


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  2. #72
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Thumbs down Deracinated and Uncivilized

    Yes, to live without religion is to be deracinated.

    For there has never been a civilization not based on a religion, including our own.

    Yes, to live without religion is to be deracinated and uncivilized.

  3. #73
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Yes, to live without religion is to be deracinated.

    For there has never been a civilization not based on a religion, including our own.
    Quote Originally Posted by Victor
    There has never been a civilization not based on a religion.
    Nor has there ever been a civilization less religious and more knowledgeable than today. Societies are founded anew every day.

    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Yes, to live without religion is to be deracinated and uncivilized.
    Quote Originally Posted by Victor
    So it is likely that it is not possible to live a civilized life without religion.
    History provides much evidence against your assumption.

    Quote Originally Posted by Victor
    For instance, our civilization is based on christianity and it is not possible to understand our civilization without understanding christianity.

    And in particular it is not possible to understand English literature without understanding the Bible.

    And even more interesting, it is not possible to understand the noosphere without understanding the universalist nature of christianity.
    That does not require one to 'live a life with religion', unless you think you live your life with Tolkien as well.

  4. #74
    Lungs & Lips Locked Unkindloving's Avatar
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    I have faith in myself, but not in unknown outside forces. I'm happy with this, but it's because I can handle not having something to chalk up existence to. Most people who keep to their religion want something that informs them of how we are here, why we are here, and where we go when we aren't here. They want something outside of themselves to devote to and to place blame or praise on.

    Devoting to myself in such a way is far easier. If I wanted all of the questions answered, I'm sure it would prove more difficult.
    Hang on traveling woman - Don't sacrifice your plan
    Cause it will come back to you - Before you lose it on the man


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  5. #75
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    Scientific studies have shown that people that are religious have lower stress and are happier. I honestly think this has less to do with the religion itself than the fact that belonging to a religion is a good way to get an instant support group.

    I think in the end we all deal with the same issues in the same ways, but we use different labels and models in our heads to understand them, I really believe it's all the same.

  6. #76
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Nor has there ever been a civilization less religious and more knowledgeable than today. Societies are founded anew every day.
    History provides much evidence against your assumption.
    That does not require one to 'live a life with religion', unless you think you live your life with Tolkien as well.
    Western civilization is based on Ancient Greek philosophy, Judaism and Christianity. And to understand the West it is necessary to understand all three.

    And today we have three civilizations - the West, Indian civilization and Chinese civilization. And there is no fourth civilization. Islam claims to be a fourth civilization, but it is only a large political religion.

    And you are right societies are founded every day but only within a civilization. And there is no new civilization on the horizon.

    Most of us don't understand our own civilization, never mind the other two.

    And interestingly the Enlightenment occurred within Western civilization but not within Indian or Chinese civilization.

    And so we can only be at home in our own civilization otherwise we are deracinated.

    However once we are at home, we can venture forth and learn Hindi and Mandarin.

  7. #77
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    So I understand that either you are refraining from your original assertion that "to live without religion is to be deracinated and uncivilized" or you are not really discussing the topic at hand.

    I would like you to define what it means "to live with(out) religion" and to be civilized.

  8. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    So I understand that either you are refraining from your original assertion that "to live without religion is to be deracinated and uncivilized" or you are not really discussing the topic at hand.

    I would like you to define what it means "to live with(out) religion" and to be civilized.
    I am often accused of not discussing the topic at hand. But I'll give it a go.

    I would define "to live without religion" as not understanding the religion of our civilization. It means not to understand it emotionally, not to understand it intellectually, not to understand it socially and not to understand it poetically.

    Of course one can be an atheist and fully understand our religion. In fact most atheists understand our religion better than the believers.

    And a civilization contains all the feelings, behaviours and thoughts humans are capable of. When we are in the midst of a civilization, we feel we can fully be ourselves, we can be fully human.

    So it is no surprise we only have three styles of civilization.

    But what is interesting is that they are distinguished by the distinctions they make, for we perceive by making distinctions.

    How's that for addressing the topic?

  9. #79
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    I am afraid your definitions of the above terms are somewhat different from what one would usually think them to mean. But if we agree on these definitions, we can also agree on most of your claims.

    I believe more than ever that my candidate for your new username is very suitable.

  10. #80
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    We're social animals, it's far more comforting to say "yes I'm one of those" than to try to communicate that the things which you support have only one title and that is a rather meaningless "The stuff I support" and that's pretty much universal.

    Personally I'd prefer to have a title for my beliefs but the definitions change depending on what someone's trying to prove so I stick to agnostic as most don't use the word regularly which means I get to hand them the definition but still make it sound like there's a whole slew of people who think like me.

    Oh and deciding on what is good and bad and why you should do this rather than that is more difficult without a prescribed format to accept or reject imo.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

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