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  1. #41
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Personal preference is without. The thought of yet one more layer of useless societal conditioning is enough to warrant a she-hulk.

  2. #42
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nolla View Post
    He has kept pretty quiet in my case, so, that kinda shapes the way I see this...
    He said the same thing about you the other day, said you hardly ever talk to him ...

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    He said the same thing about you the other day, said you hardly ever talk to him ...
    He should know he needs to make the first move. I am an introvert.

  4. #44
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    I am not convinced it is easier because most religions involve obligations, no matter how spiritually attuned you are and no matter how much benefice you could derive from meditation or other spiritual practices or the consolations of beliefs you will still, I believe, find your life more difficult and experience as many internal conflicts as a result of being dedicated to a religion and its precepts as not being.

    With respect to most athiests, I tend to find that the majority of athiests, particularly young people, are lazy about belief or dont need belief, find it unrewarding and devoid of consolations and so their out look could most accurately be characterised as irreligious, non-religious or non-believing.

    I've met very, very few "conviction athiests" who would be martyr material if they where placed in the situation. Conversely I also find not many "athiests in a fox hole", to coin the phrase, so it serves some purpose. If as nothing else as a psychological mechanism or defence people adopt it as a consolation.

    This is one of the things which disturbs me the most about people "getting religion" or being "saved", I know many of the protestant faiths are built up around this so I dont want to offer offence but none the less, I see a lot of people troubled by neurotic guilt, a mid life crisis or angst about increased expectations and diminished opportunities.

    All of this I think can involve adopting religion or ideology, or more frequently religion as ideology, as a crutch. That can lead to terrible things for the individual and others. It wont make their life easier and I think that if it prevents real self-development or resolution of internal conflicts or trauma it will actually make it more difficult.

    Maybe some people find it brave to live despite its apparent pointlessness, I dont particularly, for some people the idea of no eternal damnation infinitely outweighs the consolation of an eternal reward, I dont buy that either. We live in age in which people will pass on even the idea of a saint's reward provided they can be sure they will not answer for their wrong doing and receive a sinners reward. To me that says something about bad faith or troubled conscience rather than religion or the question of objectively considering an afterlife or God.

    In any instance I really and truly believe that religion should not and can not be used to deny the reality of death and suffering, those things are what they are, regardless of any promise, faith or hope. In most instances when facing either of those things I believe that philosophy can frequently does provide more of a consolation than religion alone. That is to say that as a believer I dont find that I'm untroubled by those things, I cant dismiss them as irrelevences.

  5. #45
    Superwoman Red Herring's Avatar
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    pro:
    The Project Gutenberg E-text of The Grand Inquisitor, by Feodor Dostoevsky
    (well, sort of, depending on your reading)

    contra:[YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q715ty5hLt4"]Stephen Fry on a world without God[/YOUTUBE]
    The good life is one inspired by love and guided by knowledge. Neither love without knowledge, nor knowledge without love can produce a good life. - Bertrand Russell
    A herring's blog
    Johari / Nohari

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    All of this I think can involve adopting religion or ideology, or more frequently religion as ideology, as a crutch. That can lead to terrible things for the individual and others. It wont make their life easier and I think that if it prevents real self-development or resolution of internal conflicts or trauma it will actually make it more difficult.
    Good stuff.

    To be honest, most of the (openly) religious people I've met in real life make the hair on my neck stand up. They are fake, and usually use their "belief" as a stick to beat other people with. I think you are talking about the same people here...

    Have to add, though, that there aren't many openly religious people here, so my sample is limited. Religion seems to be the new taboo.

  7. #47
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nolla View Post
    Good stuff.

    To be honest, most of the (openly) religious people I've met in real life make the hair on my neck stand up. They are fake, and usually use their "belief" as a stick to beat other people with. I think you are talking about the same people here...

    Have to add, though, that there aren't many openly religious people here, so my sample is limited. Religion seems to be the new taboo.
    Really? In terms of being taboo I tend to think that religion ranks fairly low down the list, it comes a distance behind criticising the widespread acceptance of or vogue for homosexuality, decline in the nuclear family, stuff like that.

    I'm interested to know what you think about this and how you reach this conclusion, it could well be as you say, as a religious person I'm often more interested in and have a keener eye, deliberately so, to the abuses of my creedo. Its not always the case with believers or religious individuals but I think it should be. Realistically people need to start with themselves, since your sphere of influence will always be much, much smaller than your sphere of concern.

    The thing is that there are people who use religion as a "big stick", they beat themselves too you know, I dont think its any way restricted to religion either, ideology does a good line in that too but there are myriad ideologies with a small i which permit that kind of thing too. It could be as simple as and as unacknowledged as group dynamics or popularity contests.

    I think that while there are ugly elements in religious ranks there is a problem in that secularists or people who've had bad experiences with religious types often will make the next religious person they meet answer for the actions of others, they might not bare any resembalence to those individuals. I think its a terrible and polarising thing because if someone encounters it often enough they can eventually decide that they might aswell conform to the stereotype being put on them, or that they've no option, they should either join one camp or the other.

  8. #48
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    pro:
    The Project Gutenberg E-text of The Grand Inquisitor, by Feodor Dostoevsky
    (well, sort of, depending on your reading)

    contra:[YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q715ty5hLt4"]Stephen Fry on a world without God[/YOUTUBE]
    I think Stephen Fry is a bad example when talking about the glory or beauty of a world without God, he suffers pretty bad from bipolar depression and can be pretty despairing and difficult company for many of the teams he shoots documentaries or TV shows with.

    I've always suspected that athiesm can be equated with despair, whatever to the contrary people may say and most of the time when I see his material it reinforces that. AC Grayling could be a better example but I dont know if he's on YouTube and he can appear quite bitter in print, interviews on philosophy bites podcast are more amicable.

    That said even AC Grayling appears in the sort of self-congratulatory "too grown up" for belief school of thought. I find it pretty unappealing.

  9. #49
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
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    Personally? I don't think of it as easy or difficult. To me, it has always seemed unnecessary. All of the things I had been taught that God or religion could give me: meaning, afterlife, comfort, community, guidance, etc I could find on my own inside myself, or in other things, without God. Except for afterlife maybe, but I don't fear a finite existence, and don't really understand why others do. I've always thought it was a fear of fools. There's a poetry to me, that I was born from dust and will end in dust.

    Nobody has it easy. I have a journey in which I struggle to find the answers. They have the answers in which they struggle with the journey. There's a poetry in that too.






    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I think Stephen Fry is a bad example when talking about the glory or beauty of a world without God, he suffers pretty bad from bipolar depression and can be pretty despairing and difficult company for many of the teams he shoots documentaries or TV shows with.
    lol wut? How is his disposition related at all to how he's a bad example of the beauty of a world without God?

  10. #50
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    lol wut? How is his disposition related at all to how he's a bad example of the beauty of a world without God?
    Because I think its pretty much a mistaken to think that way, a mistake born of either experiencing highs or lows and pretty much look no further for that.

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