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  1. #71
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by nozflubber View Post
    Christians and muslims both feel that all homosexuality is a sin because its "unnatural" and seemingly contrary to "good organism order", but I believe that is incorrect. Mother nature has shown time and again that there is plenty of reason to have homosexual organisms around.

    Like...?
    It works against the trend toward overpopulation.

  2. #72
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JivinJeffJones View Post
    Another point I'll add (haven't read the rest of this thread, so not sure if it's been covered already) is that it's a pretty common teaching in Christianity that God judges entire nations for what they allow to happen within that nation. Which means that if the government endorses something sinful then the whole nation (including the Christians therein) will be cursed for it. Which is one reason they're so passionate in opposing it. So if two gay people live gayly it's their sin alone, but if their gay union is recognized and made official by the government then it becomes the sin of the government and therefore the entire nation. Or something to that effect.
    I lived in Florida awhile back, and there was one summer with more than the usual hurricane activity, plus widespread fires to boot. Some prominent Christian fundamentalist blamed that on the fact that Disney Corp had extended health benefits to same-sex partners. It boggles my mind that apparently rational, educated people actually believe this stuff. As one contemporary political comedian concluded, "Homosexuals of America: only you can prevent forest fires."

  3. #73
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  4. #74
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    That isn't a necessary feature of Christianity. Some conversations in Christendom are dominated by the very loud voices of bigoted individuals and groups, it's true, but there are a lot of less pushy practitioners who reject those notions.

    I'd add that believing all Christians are bigots is just as bigoted as believing all gays are child molesters.
    Yes, fortunately. Some Christian groups are even starting to reclaim the tolerant, caring side of the Bible on the political stage. You know, the part about caring for the less fortunate, and embracing the marginalized? The things Jesus himself actually did. It is interesting that those on the so-called Christian "right" are just as hesitant to put these tenets into practice through the political process as they are eager to push their own brand of personal "morality".

  5. #75
    AKA Nunki Polaris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy
    I'd add that believing all Christians are bigots is just as bigoted as believing all gays are child molesters.
    Not really. In spite of there being a lot of accepting Christians out there, many of them, maybe even most of them, wear bigotry like a badge of honor; they would object to nothing about the word except its connotations. The connection between homosexuality and molesting children, on the other hand, is more a matter of lumping homosexuals in with another type of "sexual pervert" in a disingenuous attempt to vilify them.

    Anyway, the reasons that a lot of religions hate homosexuality are a) that most of them see it as a waste of sexual energy that could be directed toward populating the world with indoctrinated little missionaries, b) that many religions frown on anything earthly or fleshly (like sexual pleasure for its own sake), and c) that sexuality is the core concern of every living thing, and for that reason, a lot of people give it extensive thought, and the more you think about something, the more likely you are to come up with arbitrary conclusions that some people will disagree with.
    [ Ni > Ti > Fe > Fi > Ne > Te > Si > Se ][ 4w5 sp/sx ][ RLOAI ][ IEI-Ni ]

  6. #76
    Senior Member JivinJeffJones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Polaris View Post
    Anyway, the reasons that a lot of religions hate homosexuality are a) that most of them see it as a waste of sexual energy that could be directed toward populating the world with indoctrinated little missionaries, b) that many religions frown on anything earthly or fleshly (like sexual pleasure for its own sake), and c) that sexuality is the core concern of every living thing, and for that reason, a lot of people give it extensive thought, and the more you think about something, the more likely you are to come up with arbitrary conclusions that some people will disagree with.
    You've clearly given this a lot of thought then.

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  8. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Funkadelic View Post
    Fuck that shit. Fuck Christianity.
    Wow, that's one profound argument you have there. I think I'll have to sit and reflect on this for a while.

  9. #79
    Senior Member Nonsensical's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    Have you ever even MET a Christian? I'm sure you have, but you could never tell from this ill-informed tirade.
    I attended numerous Episcopal and Catholic churches for 17 years.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Wow, that's one profound argument you have there. I think I'll have to sit and reflect on this for a while.
    Dude, who are you? Respect other's opinions, silly as they may be to you. Stop thinking your some hot shot intellectual, you're just a guy. And I've never personally liked your stuck up behavior.
    Is it that by its indefiniteness it shadows forth the heartless voids and immensities of the universe, and thus stabs us from behind with the thought of annihilation, when beholding the white depths of the milky way?

  10. #80
    Diabolical Kasper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    As someone who used to be religious and someone who has actually read the Bible, I will tell you that the instructions to not be gay in Leviticus are right beside the instructions to not eat pork or shellfish or eat milk and meat together. I think, and thought back then, that the idea of condemning people for one thing in the old Jewish laws while being permissive about another i.e. the vast majority of Christians do not follow Jewish laws about food or otherwise, is insanity and hypocrisy.

    Also, there's this whole thing in the New Testament about do not judge lest ye be judged, so even if homosexuality is a sin, let he who is without sin cast the first stone. In other words, mind your own fucking business because you aren't perfect either.
    I agree totally, and yet that stance doesn't appear to hold ground against someone who uses religious beliefs against the act of homosexuality.


    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    So yeah, I'm just not bothering.

    For anybody interested:
    Christian Antropology and Homosexuality
    For anyone else who feels like Peguy and has resources I can look at please link them in as I'm not interested in imposing my beliefs, I'm interested in understanding the other side. I appreciate what Owl in particular has already posted but understand it can be an emotional topic for some.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I'll be honest, my feelings toward my parents and extended family and sister are probably damaged forever because of their unwillingness to educate themselves enough to talk intelligently about my issues. I would care less if they could speak intelligently and simply disagree with me and could support their points (as I can respect some people here who disagree with me because they are able to discuss and communicate); but I will never be able to move past the reality that they have avoided change by choosing ignorance, at my expense. I still have people in my family who are angry at me and yet who have never ever talked to me about my situation, or tried to legitimately understand except to run to demagogues who tell them what they already want to believe (and then accuse me of being subverted, after I've educated myself to understand both sides); and I feel sold out and no longer really want or need them in my life that much. That level of abandonment kills the relationship dead.

    So yes, I get what you are saying.

    But I've also had to become aware of how difficult it is for both the generational thing (like Tilty says) and the religious thing (since often the religious beliefs are accepted or lost wholesale and they have a lot invested in those particular sets of beliefs). That has been another point of frustration -- that I have no way to even catalyze a change in our relationship. They're just too entrenched to move, even if they decided they should. It's not as easy as making a choice, and even if they made the choice, I'll doubt any of them will make it very far before they pass away.
    And this is why I want to understand where people like your family are coming from, I actually feel quite lucky that my family is no longer involved in the religion that we grew up in, for one I consider it scarily cult like, for two I have gay family members and I know how difficult coming to terms with that it was for my parents even through they were no longer involved with the church, the views of older generations are not too liberal on the topic of sexuality, if religion was still involved I can't imagine the relationship my mother would have with her children.

    If an individual views a group of people as evil, than their child tells them they belong to that group they either have to give up what they believed in, or see their child as evil. What I want to understand is why someone would allow views, which are fiercely debated to begin with, to come before their child. They have to be deeply held views that they cannot afford to give up.

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