User Tag List

First 3456715 Last

Results 41 to 50 of 184

  1. #41
    facettes de la petite mor Words of Ivory's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Posts
    512

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    If you've been taught something your entire life that everyone agrees is common knowledge, and you've never been exposed to the thing itself, how are you going to know any different?
    My parent's generation was a very conservative generation in Ireland, as is the country itself even to this day.

    I was raised with people constantly telling me that homosexuality was wrong, and I never for an instance agreed with it, simply because my own basic common sense told me that being different doesn't make you a bad person. A person should be judged for what they do, not what they are.

    If anything, I was adhering more to the words of the bible than they were, and I'm the agnostic one. Ironic, really.

    This isn't a personal ego stroke, no matter how some of you may end up viewing it. If you look at my initial post, I expressly defended religion in this argument, and only condemned the extremists responsible for creating the propaganda that makes people believe that religion as a whole had an issue with homosexuality in the first place.

    It's my belief that most people nowadays support homosexuality, including many religious people. Because they were willing to educate themselves as well.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    "Life calls out the meaning of pure jubilance,
    if you'll only take the time to hear it."
    ~ Words of Ivory ~

  2. #42
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Posts
    420

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Words of Ivory View Post
    Whilst I'm normally completely fine with people having their flaws or their own ways of approaching the many, many things that come our ways in life, this is one of the very few exceptions where I draw the line.

    Ignorance is a choice. I've never considered "pressure" to be a valid excuse for not questioning things.

    If a person is ignorant of something, they have two choice 1) Educate themselves about the subject it is that they're ignorant about, or 2) Wilfully remain ignorant. The latter I find deplorable.
    Yeah, but many people will consider approaching religion/spiritual texts as educating themselves about a subject. That's the whole problem, imo.

  3. #43
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    FREE
    Enneagram
    594 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ne
    Posts
    42,333

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Words of Ivory View Post
    Whilst I'm normally completely fine with people having their flaws or their own ways of approaching the many, many things that come our ways in life, this is one of the very few exceptions where I draw the line.

    Ignorance is a choice. I've never considered "pressure" to be a valid excuse for not questioning things.

    If a person is ignorant of something, they have two choice 1) Educate themselves about the subject it is that they're ignorant about, or 2) Wilfully remain ignorant. The latter I find deplorable.
    So do I.

    But you make it sound like it's a "simple thing"... as easy as choosing to accept something and educate themselves, which exactly is what they are expecting LGBT people to do.

    Which is bull, frankly; and we're also talking about religious people in general while you're choosing to represent the whole religious class as this particular subset of "ignorant."

    I'll be honest, my feelings toward my parents and extended family and sister are probably damaged forever because of their unwillingness to educate themselves enough to talk intelligently about my issues. I would care less if they could speak intelligently and simply disagree with me and could support their points (as I can respect some people here who disagree with me because they are able to discuss and communicate); but I will never be able to move past the reality that they have avoided change by choosing ignorance, at my expense. I still have people in my family who are angry at me and yet who have never ever talked to me about my situation, or tried to legitimately understand except to run to demagogues who tell them what they already want to believe (and then accuse me of being subverted, after I've educated myself to understand both sides); and I feel sold out and no longer really want or need them in my life that much. That level of abandonment kills the relationship dead.

    So yes, I get what you are saying.

    But I've also had to become aware of how difficult it is for both the generational thing (like Tilty says) and the religious thing (since often the religious beliefs are accepted or lost wholesale and they have a lot invested in those particular sets of beliefs). That has been another point of frustration -- that I have no way to even catalyze a change in our relationship. They're just too entrenched to move, even if they decided they should. It's not as easy as making a choice, and even if they made the choice, I'll doubt any of them will make it very far before they pass away.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #44
    facettes de la petite mor Words of Ivory's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Posts
    512

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Which is bull, frankly; and we're also talking about religious people in general while you're choosing to represent the whole religious class as this particular subset of "ignorant."
    No I'm not. I expressly said in my first post that it's not even the majority of people. Only the wilfully ignorance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I'll be honest, my feelings toward my parents and extended family and sister are probably damaged forever because of their unwillingness to educate themselves enough to talk intelligently about my issues.
    And those kind of people are the only people I'm condemning.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    It's not as easy as making a choice, and even if they made the choice, I'll doubt any of them will make it very far before they pass away.
    And this is where I disagree.

    It's the difference between "learning" and "educating yourself". And that's a damn choice. Five minutes of reading would show them that what they believe is wrong. It is solely arrogance and stubbornness that stops an individual from allowing their beliefs and perceptions to change as they take in information.
    "False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the soul with evil."
    - Socrates, Phædo 91

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    "Life calls out the meaning of pure jubilance,
    if you'll only take the time to hear it."
    ~ Words of Ivory ~

  5. #45
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    537

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    Homosexuality was considered mental illness until 1986.
    Homosexuality and Mental Health

    For older people, I can understand how something they've been counseled against their entire lives and their parents and grandparents before them, is now all of a sudden not even "sick" or "wrong" but completely ok, healthy and normal, even enough to raise children. It's a huge leap.
    Yes. Like when people where told the earth was not flat with waterfalls on the edges down to ragnarock. That must have been some mindblowing thing to be told. And very hard to believe.

    These things are not easy to comprehend or accept just out of the blue. It's simple for us now to accept this, but it took a long time to make this known, compared to guesses. I like notions such as the earth is round that is built on reasonably solid evidence. Even though it was damned hard to figure it out, I think it's worth it to put in the effort.

  6. #46
    Sniffles
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Words of Ivory View Post
    A person should be judged for what they do, not what they are.
    And you realise that it's homosexual acts that are actually condemned by Christianity not "orientation"(a concept that is completely alien to Biblical and Christian teachings and a product of the 19th century)?

    One reason why it's so irritating to debate this issue is because many seek to impose modern concepts into contexts where they don't fit. So as a Christian, I have to spend extra time trying to explain what the original context actually is(assuming the people I'm debating are actually willing to listen).

    I'm constantly puzzled as to why people constantly bring the issue up or ask "why does Christianity hate gays?" or list opposition to homosexuality within their top ten reasons for disagreeing with religion; largely because it's not much of an issue within the wider Christian tradition or the grand scheme of things as a whole. We suffer from "the importance of unimportant things" as Chesterton put it.

    So yeah, I'm just not bothering.

    For anybody interested:
    Christian Antropology and Homosexuality

  7. #47
    facettes de la petite mor Words of Ivory's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Posts
    512

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    And you realise that it's homosexual acts that are actually condemned by Christianity not "orientation"(a concept that is completely alien to Biblical and Christian teachings and a product of the 19th century)?
    Yes, I'm aware of that. Not everyone else is. It's that minority I'm talking about. Some condemn simply being gay as the sin.

    I'm not sure why my comment is being singled out. I was defending religion in my initial post.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    "Life calls out the meaning of pure jubilance,
    if you'll only take the time to hear it."
    ~ Words of Ivory ~

  8. #48
    Reason vs Being ragashree's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    Mine
    Enneagram
    1w9
    Posts
    1,770

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    And you realise that it's homosexual acts that are actually condemned by Christianity not "orientation"(a concept that is completely alien to Biblical and Christian teachings and a product of the 19th century)?

    One reason why it's so irritating to debate this issue is because many seek to impose modern concepts into contexts where they don't fit. So as a Christian, I have to spend extra time trying to explain what the original context actually is(assuming the people I'm debating are actually willing to listen).

    I'm constantly puzzled as to why people constantly bring the issue up or ask "why does Christianity hate gays?" or list opposition to homosexuality within their top ten reasons for disagreeing with religion; largely because it's not much of an issue within the wider Christian tradition or the grand scheme of things as a whole. We suffer from "the importance of unimportant things" as Chesterton put it.
    Glad you made this point. I was just thinking of doing so myself after reading through this thread and seeing the pattern of assumptions being made. Mind you, I think a lot of people these days would still have an issue with religious condemnation of homosexual acts as being intrinsically sinful or immoral despite the importance of this particular distinction.
    Look into my avatar. Look deep into my avatar...

  9. #49
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    5w6 sp/sx
    Posts
    17,581

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Why do gays hate religion so much?
    The gays I know are only put off by religions, or congregations, that are hostile to them. Few have found welcoming Christian churches. The best one finds is generally "love" coupled with the urge to "reform" the gay person, notwithstanding that sexual orientation is hard-wired in our brains. It is no more a choice than left-handedness, and we all know about those misguided attempts in the 50's and 60's to convert lefties to righties.

    Quote Originally Posted by Owl View Post
    The idea here, (with respect to homosexuality), is that God created man and woman to reflect/image his nature, and His nature is to be a union of of diversity, (and, with respect to sexual ethics, there isn't the requisite diversity in a homosexual relationship to properly image the nature of God, specifically the diversity between masculine and feminine).
    Everyone embodies both male and female archetypal traits to some degree. A gay couple will still mirror the male+female divine, but not in the same way as a straight couple, unless you only care about male-female duality on the physical level, but it is nonsensical to think of God with a physical body like ours anyway. It is spiritually that we individually and in our pairings reflect the divine and come together to create on all levels. In fact, this is the only way in which we really can.

    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    Personally, I have a lot of mixed feelings about the topic. I consider myself a Christian and consider the Bible the inspired word of God. However, it seems unfair to me that something that appears to be largely out of a person's control is considered sin. It's very hard to be celibate one's whole life and it's also very lonely.
    Your attitude is both compassionate and realistic. (It is surprising how the first often goes with the second, or how lack of the second interferes with the first.)

    On the matter of abuse/perversion: one need look no further than the recent scandals in the Catholic priesthood, or the ever-present abuse by heterosexual parents, to see that abuse is not tied to sexual orientation. I agree, though, with whoever pointed out the harmful effects of feeling forced to repress a mature and consensual expression of one's sexual preferences.

    On the matter of Biblical injunctions: if one wants to believe in the literal truth of the Bible, where is it OK to draw the line and decide we don't need to abide by that rule any more, as with consumption of shrimp, pork, etc? Even the NT contains proscriptions that are no longer followed, including many about women, though some of these die hard as well. Though not Christian, I prefer to focus on the figurative truths in the Bible, and the actual example of Jesus himself. I agree that much of Christians' (and others') attitude to gays comes from fear or discomfort of those who are different. For true haters, it is no longer PC to hate by race or even religion; that leaves GLBT as one remaining target.

  10. #50
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    FREE
    Enneagram
    594 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ne
    Posts
    42,333

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Words of Ivory View Post
    It's the difference between "learning" and "educating yourself". And that's a damn choice. Five minutes of reading would show them that what they believe is wrong. It is solely arrogance and stubbornness that stops an individual from allowing their beliefs and perceptions to change as they take in information.
    Honestly... good luck with that.

    Let me know how much headway you make, since it's "just a choice." And if they don't make the choice you want, you've no choice on your end now but to label them as bad people.

    As far as Peg's comments -- yeah, technically, the Bible is referring to "homosexual acts." The "homosexual persona" is a more recent invention at least on a wide-spread cultural basis.

    Unfortunately, this leads into the current conflict. What feels natural for the one is not natural for the other and vice versa. One group says the other can stop "homosexual acts" regardless of their internal feelings; the others say that since their persona is gay, to ask them to stop homosexual acts is no different than asking straight people to remain celibate and is thus unreasonable.

    It has also led to interesting interpretations like, "I can perform homosexual acts as long as I'm not a heterosexual person, because then it would be violating my inherent nature."
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

Similar Threads

  1. why do girls love entps so much?
    By chado in forum Intertype Relations
    Replies: 295
    Last Post: 10-14-2017, 08:03 PM
  2. [MBTItm] Why do I get along so well with INFJ's?
    By Liason in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 06-29-2009, 11:48 PM
  3. Why do English teachers suck so vigorously?
    By Risen in forum Academics and Careers
    Replies: 112
    Last Post: 01-27-2009, 05:56 PM
  4. [NT] "Why do you hate me?"
    By Haphazard in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 42
    Last Post: 01-18-2009, 10:09 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO