User Tag List

First 1234513 Last

Results 21 to 30 of 184

  1. #21
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    FREE
    Enneagram
    594 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ne
    Posts
    42,333

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kasper View Post
    Wow, that part jumped out at me the most, I didn't expect to hear that there were still people who linked homosexuality with child molestation.
    Yes, when I described the "politicization" of the issue up above, it was fearmongering things like this that I was referring to -- the same sort of fear that drives people to claim transpeople will molest children in the bathroom (and those claims were specifically made by candidates running for office at various places around the country even this past year, or pushed by various groups over the last few years).

    The politicization of talk shows and radio shows also contributes to this -- there are various main figures in media culture who spearhead and stir up emotions like this, for whatever reason. Perhaps some of them do it in order to feel powerul and acquire attention and money; others might do it because they tie LGBT issues in with a degredation of the culture and so they are fighting to preserve a way of life they believe to be the best. I only bring it up in this thread because there's not a clear-cut delineation between religion and political groups here, the line is very muddy in terms of what is influencing what.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #22
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    FREE
    Enneagram
    594 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ne
    Posts
    42,333

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Owl View Post
    Yes, but it goes down even further. God cannot impose just any role on his creatures. The role a creature ought to fulfill is based on what that creature is--what God made that creature to be. God couldn't create a tree frog and then assign that frog a role in the tundra while simultaneously expecting it to thrive. The idea here, (with respect to homosexuality), is that God created man and woman to reflect/image his nature, and His nature is to be a union of of diversity, (and, with respect to sexual ethics, there isn't the requisite diversity in a homosexual relationship to properly image the nature of God, specifically the diversity between masculine and feminine). In this sense, homosexual couples would be like tree frogs in the tundra: they'd be existentially fucked.*

    This is why Christians are so homophobic (imo).
    I always have appreciated the thoughtfulness of your posts, Owl.
    You have explained this concept very well, I've observed this argument a great deal since I've tried to unravel this topic myself.

    I think where I'm unsure is that I can't tell whether this notion is actually driving the opposition or whether it's one of the rationalizations people use to justify their fear of change. Maybe it differs from person to person? I think I have seen both types... or mixes of them...
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #23
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    537

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I've talked about it with my mother and she pretty firmly believes that, since homosexuals practice one form of sexual perversion, that they are more likely to sexually molest children.
    This may even be true within some branches of repressed religious homosexuality. As repression, shame etc, longing for a lost childhood can make one seek out children to relive what one have been denied. Within the church these stories are endless, and seems to pile up on another.

    I just read this article yesterday, this seems plausible to me. It's also interesting to note that these child molesters, both from a church pov and the molester prefers paedophilia to gayness.

    Masculine gays committing many atrocities
    According to Langfeldt, not all perpetrators of this group aware of their orientation. Others deny their homosexuality altogether, and choose instead to define themselves as pedophiles
    The Catholic Church denies a connection between homosexuality in their own ranks and the perpetrators. The characteristics of the perpetrators as pedophiles rather than gays.

    - Now the church will go even further and say that those who are sexually interested in boys between 14-16 years are also sick. They are not gays, but fedofile - concerned with youth, "said Langfeldt.

  4. #24
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    9w1
    Socionics
    INFj None
    Posts
    9,827

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kasper View Post
    Wow, that part jumped out at me the most, I didn't expect to hear that there were still people who linked homosexuality with child molestation.
    I don't know how common it is. My mom is nearly 62, FWIW.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kasper View Post
    Ah, I guess that would explain why studies that contradict with Christian views on abortion and gay rights aren't welcomed, there's more at stake here than abortion and gay rights.
    Yeah. A lot of fear of the unknown and fear very often leads to hate.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kasper View Post
    Do you find it common for people who view homosexuality as a sin share your view on that, the whole "love the sinner, hate the sin" idea that is?
    First let me say that I'm fairly bitter about a lot of attitudes that many people who share my faith hold, so I'm not unbiased by any means. No, I don't find it common. What I've seen is more akin to a special kind of loathing reserved just for that particular sin. They say that they love, but they almost cringe as they say it and if a homosexual is or becomes a believer, they cannot reconcile any homosexual practice and barely any homosexual desires/temptations with that person's faith, if that makes sense. It's as if they fear it's contagious.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  5. #25
    Diabolical Kasper's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Enneagram
    9w8 so/sx
    Posts
    11,544

    Default

    Thanks for explaining in more detail Owl, I just leart something new!

    Quote Originally Posted by Owl View Post
    No, if by "sexuality" you mean what a person finds arousing. I see no reason to deny that a person could both recognize the force of teleological arguments against homosexual behavior yet still be aroused by homosexual thoughts or behavior.
    So having the thoughts/attraction isn't an issue, so long as you never act on it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Yes, when I described the "politicization" of the issue up above, it was fearmongering things like this that I was referring to -- the same sort of fear that drives people to claim transpeople will molest children in the bathroom (and those claims were specifically made by candidates running for office at various places around the country even this past year, or pushed by various groups over the last few years).
    I don't feel as though we see it as much here, I expect the fact that our politics are a lot more separated from religion, and we're not as religious as the States would be the reasons why. The figures have 60% of the population here supporting gay marriage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I think where I'm unsure is that I can't tell whether this notion is actually driving the opposition or whether it's one of the rationalizations people use to justify their fear of change. Maybe it differs from person to person? I think I have seen both types... or mixes of them...
    They seem that closely linked that it's too hard to tell.

  6. #26
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/so
    Posts
    1,565

    Default

    I think large, long-lived institutions tend to be conservative, especially about areas they consider their charge. I also think that sexuality is a very emotionally charged topic and people look for rational reasons to back-up their emotional responses. People initially often have an "ick" response when confronted with homosexuality... it's hard for that not to have an affect.

    Plus, institutions like marriage do have a big effect on the quality of a child's upbringing. We know that children do better when raised in a stable loving home with two parents (extended family optional). A church should want to foster an environment that is good for its members. Eventually channeling sexual behavior into stable relationships is part of that.

    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    My background is that of an American Evangelical and, as I understand it, homosexual acts are considered sin in the Christian scriptures. If you really stretch and twist, it's possible to interpret it otherwise, but it really is a stretch. Not only is it sin, it's called an abomination, which I believe means really bad sin. Evangelicals and Fundamental Christians (and I use fundamental the way Fundamental Christians mean it) generally put a lot of emphasis on literal interpretations of the scriptures.
    Actually, the word translated as "abomination" is perhaps better translated as taboo or "unclean." As is often pointed out, the Bible states that mixed fiber clothing is an abomination, as are shrimp. I think it's hard for all of us (liberal or conservative) to take off our cultural blinders when reading the Bible, since it was written from a very different social context.

    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    In the eighties, when it became clear that the US was becoming more and more secular, a political movement was started in order to attempted to reverse the trend. There have been a handful of areas where attention and energies have been focused. Abortion rights, gay rights, and religious rights tend to be the top ones.
    I think there have been time periods of greater secularism in the United States and periods of religious revival ("Great Awakenings" and the like). However, I think the recent focus on abortion and homosexuality (since the Moral Majority in the 80s) has been convenient because those issues are both polarizing and are things done by people "out there in the world." This makes them better issues for fundraising and projection than the previous big evangelical issue of divorce (which was seen as an issue affecting congregations themselves).

    That doesn't mean that thoughtful people can't be genuinely against homosexuality, of course.


    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    Like Jennifer said, sex is always a big focus of everything in the US, so here, at least, it's going to get a lot of attention. What I've heard during my years attending church and listening to para-church groups is that homosexual normalization causes the country to slide further away from God and righteousness. Some fear that God will punish a nation that, by their standards, embrace homosexual relationships. I've talked about it with my mother and she pretty firmly believes that, since homosexuals practice one form of sexual perversion, that they are more likely to sexually molest children.
    And it's clear why with 1950s "educational" videos like like: [YOUTUBE="A5VNe9NTOxA"]boys beware[/YOUTUBE]
    Note that according to most modern studies, homosexuals are no more or less likely to molest people than anyone else. Also note that the gender of children chosen by child molesters made not match the abusers' sexual orientation with adults (if any).

    Quote Originally Posted by Owl View Post
    No, if by "sexuality" you mean what a person finds arousing. I see no reason to deny that a person could both recognize the force of teleological arguments against homosexual behavior yet still be aroused by homosexual thoughts or behavior.
    As Jennifer mentions, I just don't think those teleological arguments really form the basis of anyone's opinions. They also ignore that "homosexual behavior" is observed in the natural world, as well... as is asexual reproduction and the like. It's blindingly obvious that sexual reproduction is needed for the continuation of any species that only reproduces sexually. However, that doesn't mean that every individual must reproduce sexually—I haven't noticed we human beings having an underpopulation problem—or that not reproducing sexually is wrong.

    One could use a similar argument to argue against modern medicine, since it's the nature of pneumonia, influenza, etc to infect and kill weakened people. It's the nature of our immune systems to be strengthened by fighting off infections naturally. It's the nature of an over-populated species to be decimated by plagues, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kasper View Post
    I don't feel as though we see it as much here, I expect the fact that our politics are a lot more separated from religion, and we're not as religious as the States would be the reasons why. The figures have 60% of the population here supporting gay marriage.
    We just passed the 50% mark of support here in the U.S. (of course that varies a lot from state to state). I think it is the intersection of the religious and political that make the "gay marriage" and "gay rights" debates so tendentious here.

  7. #27
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    9w1
    Socionics
    INFj None
    Posts
    9,827

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    Actually, the word translated as "abomination" is perhaps better translated as taboo or "unclean." As is often pointed out, the Bible states that mixed fiber clothing is an abomination, as are shrimp. I think it's hard for all of us (liberal or conservative) to take off our cultural blinders when reading the Bible, since it was written from a very different social context.
    I make an effort to do that and frankly, I did a study on the subject hoping very much to dismiss from my mind the belief that homosexual acts are considered sin in the Bible. Granted, I'm no expert, but I have a reasonable handle on hermeneutics. As one that leans toward a literal interpretation of the Bible I can't honestly and in good conscience say that the Bible doesn't teach that homosexual acts are sinful.

    It's not just an obscure verse in the Old Testament. It's in the New Testament and in more than one place. There are moral things that are called abominations along with things that seem minor to us now, like shellfish and mixed fabrics. I would love to be wrong. It would set my mind and heart at ease, but so far I haven't seen a compelling argument by Evangelical standards. I would like very much to see one.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  8. #28
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/so
    Posts
    1,565

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I make an effort to do that and frankly, I did a study on the subject hoping very much to dismiss from my mind the belief that homosexual acts are considered sin in the Bible. Granted, I'm no expert, but I have a reasonable handle on hermeneutics. As one that leans toward a literal interpretation of the Bible I can't honestly and in good conscience say that the Bible doesn't teach that homosexual acts are sinful.

    It's not just an obscure verse in the Old Testament. It's in the New Testament and in more than one place. There are moral things that are called abominations along with things that seem minor to us now, like shellfish and mixed fabrics. I would love to be wrong. It would set my mind and heart at ease, but so far I haven't seen a compelling argument by Evangelical standards. I would like very much to see one.
    I've spent time with those verses myself, trying to make sense of them and reconcile them to my personal experience and my limited understanding of the nature of God. Being gay and raised fundamentalist, it was a matter of some concern.

    I'd highly recommend Dirt, Greed and Sex by L. William Countryman, then. He doesn't quite convince me on every point (there's one New Testament verse in particular where I find his interpretation strained), but he is fairly convincing in a number of areas... and definitely gives a good model for how differently some aspects of culture (marriage for example) were seen in Old Testament in particular. I can try to sum up some of his arguments, but not being a Bible, Hebrew or Greek scholar, I doubt I'd do them justice.

  9. #29
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    9w1
    Socionics
    INFj None
    Posts
    9,827

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    I've spent time with those verses myself, trying to make sense of them and reconcile them to my personal experience and my (limited) understanding of the nature of God. Being gay and raised fundamentalist, it was a matter of some concern.

    I'd highly recommend Dirt, Greed and Sex by L. William Countryman, then. He doesn't quite convince me on every point (there's one New Testament verse in particular where I find his interpretation strained), but he is fairly convincing in a number of areas... and definitely gives a good model for how differently some aspects of culture (marriage for example) were seen in Old Testament, in particular. I can try to sum up some of his arguments, but not being a Bible, Hebrew or Greek scholar, I doubt I'd do them justice.
    Thank you! I will look into it.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  10. #30
    facettes de la petite mor Words of Ivory's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Posts
    512

    Default

    The reality of the matter is that the heterosexual hatred tends to stem from the extreme evangelical types, which there are unfortunately a few too many of.

    The bible itself only makes a handful of mentions towards homosexuality as a sin, which are almost exclusively contained in the Old Testament. There are passages in the bible that go so far as to consider a man shaving to be a sin, but you don't see anyone sticking to that, do you?

    Those who decide to follow the evangelists who spout this kind of homosexual hated are just too stupid to think for themselves, and probably haven't even read a single page of the bible of the religious they proport to believe in. Thankfully, most people aren't that ignorant.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    "Life calls out the meaning of pure jubilance,
    if you'll only take the time to hear it."
    ~ Words of Ivory ~

Similar Threads

  1. why do girls love entps so much?
    By chado in forum Intertype Relations
    Replies: 295
    Last Post: 10-14-2017, 08:03 PM
  2. [MBTItm] Why do I get along so well with INFJ's?
    By Liason in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 06-29-2009, 11:48 PM
  3. Why do English teachers suck so vigorously?
    By Risen in forum Academics and Careers
    Replies: 112
    Last Post: 01-27-2009, 05:56 PM
  4. [NT] "Why do you hate me?"
    By Haphazard in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 42
    Last Post: 01-18-2009, 10:09 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO