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  1. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kasper View Post
    The original point was not adoption.
    Well, you asked why religious people "hate" pro-gay legislation and provided a context, I answered in that context.

    Now if you're looking for, "Well, religious people are obviously all hatred driven loons and bigots" then perhaps you'll have to find your validation elsewhere.

    Which is why I'm not interested in debating the finer details of adoption or marriage or so on, I want to learn something not have the same things I've heard a million times regurgitated for me.
    Perhaps you're simply not interested. I've encountered this a million times too, not sure its regurgitation but people sure could do with investing in a Parrot.

    Then leave the thread, you have misread my motives in a major way. I understand your defensiveness as you expect people to jump on you for your views and if that happens sorry but it is not my intent.
    I'm pretty sure I understand your intent. Anyway, you guys can carry on.

  2. #12
    Diabolical Kasper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Now if you're looking for, "Well, religious people are obviously all hatred driven loons and bigots" then perhaps you'll have to find your validation elsewhere.
    It would be ludicrous to suggest that all religion is anti-gay. Of course that's not the case. But there is obviously a scriptural base for having beliefs against gays as it is a common theme in Abrahamic religions. I want to understand how that translates into the modern day as not all scriptural bases are followed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Kas isn't from the States, though, and I have no idea what Oz is like.
    I don't either to be honest, religion isn't a big part of life here, at least not in the way it appears to be in the States. And yet it does still play a role. One of the reasons I'm interested in understanding better is our Atheist Prime Minister has touted religious traditions as the reason gay marriage won't be considered, clearly there is pressure in my country from religious groups. There is also a religious based political party that would encourage discrimination against homosexuals. I want to understand the rationale behind that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    However, I don't like the leap in the OP from "Christian groups vocal against homosexuality" to "all religion is against homosexuality."
    Religion is far more than just some sects of Christianity, and specific beliefs / expression of belief can change from geographical location to geographical location.
    Naturally, nothing is ever black and white. I worded it as such as I don't want PC answers.

    What's your understanding of religious objection to homosexuality?

  3. #13
    desert pelican Owl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kasper View Post
    once again it's Christian lobby groups urging politicians to reject the [...] it's just typical, whenever a topic of gay rights comes up the people jumping up and down attempting to squash them are Christian organisations.

    Why does religion see homosexuality as so darn evil?
    I'll echo Jennifer. Not all religions see homosexuality as evil. But I will try to unpack why homosexuality is so widely considered evil within Christendom.

    First, and probably most prevalent, is the teleological argument, or the argument from design. This argument, (in the versions I know), aren't valid, but they are inductively strong. (imo, anyway. At least, I'd hope that they would give a person pause before committing to a homosexual lifestyle).

    If these are resisted, I'd retreat to the position that God is both masculine and feminine...

    "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them (Gen 1:27, NIV).

    And that man, as created in the image of God, is meant to image God as faithfully as possible. (I.e., goodness does not simply supervene over any property that you share with God; the more you fall short of imaging God faithfully, then the more evil you are. Thus, we humans ought to strive to reflect God's essential properties in our lives to the greatest degree possible, and as God is composed of a complimentary union of masculine and feminine properties, then we ought to strive to reflect these properties in our live s to the greatest extent possible. Homosexual unions, as it is maintained within conservative Christian circles, cannot faithfully reflect this essential aspect of God; therefore, homosexuals fail to reflect this aspect of God in their lives; therefore homosexuals are evil to the extent that they fail to reflect this essential property of God.)

    Capiche?


    Admittedly, this position assumes the authority of scripture, and it interprets scripture in its own way, requiring its own hermeneutic. If you don't consider the bible a source of revealed knowledge apart from that which can be known to all persons at all times... then, if you still want to know why (many/most) Christians think homosexuality is evil, you need to understand why Christians think the bible is a source of revealed knowledge--but that is a different question--and then you can start to parse Christian arguments concerning homosexuality*.

    In conclusion, if you want to understand why Christians think homosexuality is evil, and the teleological argument doesn't hold water with you, then read Leviticus 19, Romans 1, 1 Cor. 6... perhaps there's even more.

    *If any Christian on this board can produce or adduce an argument that logically shows homosexuality is impermissible from General Revelation, please do so.

  4. #14
    Let me count the ways Betty Blue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by guesswho View Post
    because jesus wasn't gay.
    Or was he?
    "We knew he was someone who had a tragic flaw, that's where his greatness came from"

  5. #15
    Diabolical Kasper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Owl View Post
    I'll echo Jennifer. Not all religions see homosexuality as evil. But I will try to unpack why homosexuality is so widely considered evil within Christendom.
    Thank you!

    Quote Originally Posted by Owl View Post
    First, and probably most prevalent, is the teleological argument, or the argument from design. This argument, (in the versions I know), aren't valid, but they are inductively strong. (imo, anyway. At least, I'd hope that they would give a person pause before committing to a homosexual lifestyle).
    Does that approach have to view sexuality as a choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Owl View Post
    If these are resisted, I'd retreat to the position that God is both masculine and feminine...

    "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them (Gen 1:27, NIV).

    And that man, as created in the image of God, is meant to image God as faithfully as possible. (I.e., goodness does not simply supervene over any property that you share with God; the more you fall short of imaging God faithfully, then the more evil you are. Thus, as God is composed of a complimentary union of masculine and feminine properties, then we humans ought to strive to reflect God's essential properties in our lives to the greatest degree possible. Homosexual unions, as it is maintained within conservative Christian circles, cannot faithfully reflect this essential aspect of God; therefore, homosexuals fail to reflect this aspect of God in their lives; therefore homosexuals are evil to the extent that they fail to reflect this essential property of God.)

    Capiche?
    So that one comes down to the roles that God created man and woman to fill, the further you deviate from that the more evil?

  6. #16
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    Honestly, a person can throw around scriptures all they want, but when it comes down to it any religion selectively and interpretively follows scriptures. After all, the Old Testament forbids cotton wool blends along with homosexuality, one is 'wrong' and one is o-ok.

    I think when it comes down to it, fundamental type Christianity will never be comfortable with homosexuality because it has no model of how to deal with it. Of course there have been gays through out time, but I imagine they kept it on the down low, or joined the clergy. But there's no 'official' instructions on gays being productive and happy members of society, and the robot types can't deal without having instructions on how to deal with things.

  7. #17
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    My background is that of an American Evangelical and, as I understand it, homosexual acts are considered sin in the Christian scriptures. If you really stretch and twist, it's possible to interpret it otherwise, but it really is a stretch. Not only is it sin, it's called an abomination, which I believe means really bad sin. Evangelicals and Fundamental Christians (and I use fundamental the way Fundamental Christians mean it) generally put a lot of emphasis on literal interpretations of the scriptures.

    In the eighties, when it became clear that the US was becoming more and more secular, a political movement was started in order to attempted to reverse the trend. There have been a handful of areas where attention and energies have been focused. Abortion rights, gay rights, and religious rights tend to be the top ones.

    Like Jennifer said, sex is always a big focus of everything in the US, so here, at least, it's going to get a lot of attention. What I've heard during my years attending church and listening to para-church groups is that homosexual normalization causes the country to slide further away from God and righteousness. Some fear that God will punish a nation that, by their standards, embrace homosexual relationships. I've talked about it with my mother and she pretty firmly believes that, since homosexuals practice one form of sexual perversion, that they are more likely to sexually molest children.

    Personally, I have a lot of mixed feelings about the topic. I consider myself a Christian and consider the Bible the inspired word of God. However, it seems unfair to me that something that appears to be largely out of a person's control is considered sin. It's very hard to be celibate one's whole life and it's also very lonely.

    So the way I have come to see things is that everyone sins but the Bible is very clear that God loves sinners and forgives us. I see no reason to single people that struggle with that particular inclination out for abuse. I've been in church long enough to know there is plenty of sin among the 'righteous' that nobody needs to be casting stones.

    Politically, I don't consider it the business of the state to enforce the will of any almost purely religious belief and cannot think of a good reason that the laws should not change to better reflect the culture, including rights for homosexual and heterosexual cohabiting couples.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
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  8. #18
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    I'm not sure. But I presume a homosexual union is a stronger one, more individualized, and therefore more difficult to control. From a power point of view I presume it's easier to control a union of the core family, to use as one see fit, as they are more vulnerable.

  9. #19
    Diabolical Kasper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I've talked about it with my mother and she pretty firmly believes that, since homosexuals practice one form of sexual perversion, that they are more likely to sexually molest children.
    Wow, that part jumped out at me the most, I didn't expect to hear that there were still people who linked homosexuality with child molestation.

    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    In the eighties, when it became clear that the US was becoming more and more secular, a political movement was started in order to attempted to reverse the trend. There have been a handful of areas where attention and energies have been focused. Abortion rights, gay rights, and religious rights tend to be the top ones.
    Ah, I guess that would explain why studies that contradict with Christian views on abortion and gay rights aren't welcomed, there's more at stake here than abortion and gay rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    So the way I have come to see things is that everyone sins but the Bible is very clear that God loves sinners and forgives us. I see no reason to single people that struggle with that particular inclination out for abuse. I've been in church long enough to know there is plenty of sin among the 'righteous' that nobody needs to be casting stones.
    Do you find it common for people who view homosexuality as a sin share your view on that, the whole "love the sinner, hate the sin" idea that is?

  10. #20
    desert pelican Owl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kasper View Post
    Thank you!
    You're welcome.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kasper View Post
    Does that approach have to view sexuality as a choice?
    No, if by "sexuality" you mean what a person finds arousing. I see no reason to deny that a person could both recognize the force of teleological arguments against homosexual behavior yet still be aroused by homosexual thoughts or behavior.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kasper View Post
    So that one comes down to the roles that God created man and woman to fill, the further you deviate from that the more evil?

    (My post was confusing. I hope my edit made it more clear.)


    Yes, but it goes down even further. God cannot impose just any role on his creatures. The role a creature ought to fulfill is based on what that creature is--what God made that creature to be. God couldn't create a tree frog and then assign that frog a role in the tundra while simultaneously expecting it to thrive. The idea here, (with respect to homosexuality), is that God created man and woman to reflect/image his nature, and His nature is to be a union of of diversity, (and, with respect to sexual ethics, there isn't the requisite diversity in a homosexual relationship to properly image the nature of God, specifically the diversity between masculine and feminine). In this sense, homosexual couples would be like tree frogs in the tundra: they'd be existentially fucked.*

    This is why Christians are so homophobic (imo).


    *Stole this from Provoker at INTPc.

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