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  1. #141
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vasilisa View Post

    Here is something I saw that tries to explain how the beliefs came about originally, which it sounds like you are after.
    Thanks for the article Vasilisa. I'll look it over more thoroughly later today when I get a chance. Orthodoxy Today often has great articles.

    I just see one misleading part of the author's assestment of ancient civilizations, particularly Greece and Rome. While it's true that homosexuality wasn't prohibited per se, it was mostly reserved to be with boys or slaves - ie those considered inferior to the adult citizen male. In a previous thread, I discussed this to a great extent, particularly in regards to the Lex Scantinia, which made same-sex relations between adult male citizens a capital offense. Also it's commonly acknowledged that same-sex relations as such were more tolerated among the upper classes while the lower classes tend to hold a more negative view of such practices.

  2. #142
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    You don't punish a large group of innocent people in order to remove the small risk. Our legal system is even built on the principle of letting a bad guy walk so that the innocent guy won't get convicted.
    Oh, but it's always easier to persecute the innocent than to prosecute the guilty. You look like you are actually doing something (and get re-elected), and don't have to make the effort to confront the real menace.

  3. #143
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Oh, but it's always easier to persecute the innocent than to prosecute the guilty. You look like you are actually doing something (and get re-elected), and don't have to make the effort to confront the real menace.
    Yep. When you prosecute someone, they have rights and you have the burden of proof and that can get expensive.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
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  4. #144
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Of course it also goes on to say: "But the proper reaction to crimes committed against homosexual persons should not be to claim that the homosexual condition is not disordered."
    This is the root of the problem. Although I don't think that this discursive framing of homosexuality (using medical language like "condition" or "disorder) originates in Christianity at all.
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  5. #145
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    Church is also changing. Two male artists are getting married in a traditional wedding here, as one will stand white bride. How lovely. It's not forced either, as one is a drag artist, and I presume transgendered.
    White Wedding

    There is still hope for the church, if they show will to adapt.

  6. #146
    Diabolical Kasper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    I wonder... the thread title mentions "religions." I'm aware that Islam, Judaism, Christianity and Mormonism have their anti-homosexual doctrines... but what do Buddhism, Hinduism, Confucianism, Zoroastrianism, Sikhism and Shinto have to say about it? Anything?
    Living in a predominantly Abrahamic western society it's Islam, Judaism and Christianity that I'm mostly interested as I see them looking to a biblical basis for their views.

    The other would be interesting to know but outside of the scope that I'm looking at.

  7. #147
    Diabolical Kasper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    I just see one misleading part of the author's assestment of ancient civilizations, particularly Greece and Rome. While it's true that homosexuality wasn't prohibited per se, it was mostly reserved to be with boys or slaves - ie those considered inferior to the adult citizen male. In a previous thread, I discussed this to a great extent, particularly in regards to the Lex Scantinia, which made same-sex relations between adult male citizens a capital offense. Also it's commonly acknowledged that same-sex relations as such were more tolerated among the upper classes while the lower classes tend to hold a more negative view of such practices.
    I found that article had a very clear bias to it, there were more than a few things that didn't gel for me. It seemed to start at the end of not accepting homosexual relations than worked backwards to create a case. The one you linked in seemed a lot more "neutral", whilst still having a core belief to be upheld.

  8. #148
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    This is the root of the problem. Although I don't think that this discursive framing of homosexuality (using medical language like "condition" or "disorder) originates in Christianity at all.
    Explain please.

  9. #149
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    The first question they ask when we are born is, "Is it a boy or is it a girl?".

    So gender is a fundamental distinction with which we order the world.

    So those in Holy Orders feel they have a duty to maintain this distinction.

    Fortunately in prosperous and educated societies the social order is changing.

  10. #150
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    The first question they ask when we are born is, "Is it a boy or is it a girl?".

    So gender is a fundamental distinction with which we order the world.
    I'm glad you cleared this up. I always thought people asked because there isn't much else to ask about besides, "What are you going to name it?" and "When is s/he due?"
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