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  1. #101
    Senior Member JivinJeffJones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kasper View Post
    If an individual views a group of people as evil, than their child tells them they belong to that group they either have to give up what they believed in, or see their child as evil. What I want to understand is why someone would allow views, which are fiercely debated to begin with, to come before their child. They have to be deeply held views that they cannot afford to give up.
    That assumes they see their child's homosexuality as an essential part of who they are. Most wouldn't. They'd see it as a bad decision for which they themselves are possibly to blame, same as if their child took up hard drugs for instance.

    I haven't made up my mind what I think. I guess I've never really needed to. Thus far I've been able to get away with treating people as people. Long may it continue.

  2. #102
    Sniffles
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    I think Ivy and Marm have handled Funkadelic's "teenage anger" issues rather well, so I see no need for me to respond. It's kinda natural for teenagers to go through that phase(I did), but there is a time and place one needs to grow up and handle discussions in a civil manner.

  3. #103
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    It's just ingroup/outgroup shit.

    A religion is like a fraternity. You have to do some shit to get in. And if that shit makes you feel dissonance, you must resolve it either by quitting or by updating your own beliefs. So those that don't leave (those in the group for the long term) are those that have changed their personal beliefs. Once they update their beliefs to the norm of the fraternity (or whatever analogy you want to use), they must believe that those beliefs are correct for anyone in the outgroup. They criticize the other because if they didn't they'd have to face their own dissonance.

    The further you go, the more you become for the ingroup and against the outgroup. (Because if the beliefs are wrong you'd have to admit to yourself how much time you've wasted. The more time you're in the group, the more devastating it would be to face the group being bad.)

    Same with religion.

    Homosexuality itself is just an arbitrary thing to hate in the outgroup, to make you feel better for being in the ingroup that you might subconsciously have questions about. But you quell your subconscious questioning by being even more adamant, etc.

  4. #104
    Diabolical Kasper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JivinJeffJones View Post
    That assumes they see their child's homosexuality as an essential part of who they are. Most wouldn't. They'd see it as a bad decision for which they themselves are possibly to blame, same as if their child took up hard drugs for instance.
    Fair point that.

  5. #105
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    God created with world in seven days. Man did not descend from apes. The Catholic mass was in Latin until the 1960s. Birth control is wrong. Don't shoot me, but the analogy I'd provide is a massive collective SiFe gone somewhat amok. I think tradition is very important in religion - more so than in other institutions. There is a resistance to changing to fit the times. The values are more conservative. It's not necessarily all bad perhaps but will necessarily be wrong or outdated in certain respects.

    Please provide feedback on my Nohari and Johari Window by clicking here: Nohari/Johari

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  6. #106
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JivinJeffJones View Post
    That assumes they see their child's homosexuality as an essential part of who they are. Most wouldn't. They'd see it as a bad decision for which they themselves are possibly to blame, same as if their child took up hard drugs for instance.
    It certainly was hard for my evangelical parents, my dad in particular. He felt responsible for my being gay, even though all indications are that it's not parenting (good or bad) that causes homosexuality. Oddly, evangelicals tend to be some of the last believers in certain aspects of Freudian sexual development theory.

    It doesn't help that there are organizations like Exodus waiting to take their money and promising a cure, despite Exodus' execrable track record. Still, in the long run the general failure of any treatment to change sexual orientation has its effect. That doesn't mean that some people don't believe homosexuality means a lifelong call to celibacy, but it's gratifying that many acknowledge that it's a steep price to pay for a decision one never made.

    All that is outside the issue of whether homosexuality is wrong Biblically, of course.

  7. #107
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    All that is outside the issue of whether homosexuality is wrong Biblically, of course.
    I find the selective interpretation of the Bible to be interesting at times. I'm no biblical scholar but have studied it a bit. If you read the Old Testament, there is some fascinating but crazy stuff in there. People seem to choose to bypass that however. I don't know what Hindus, Buddhists, Jews or Muslims believe...

    It might be stating the obvious (to 95% of the educated population) but I don't think sexual orientation is necessarily a choice for most people. Organized religion will catch on eventually - perhaps in 50 - 100 years.

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  8. #108
    Diabolical Kasper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    It certainly was hard to my evangelical parents, my dad in particular. He felt responsible for my being gay, even though all indications are that it's not parenting (good or bad) that causes homosexuality. Oddly, evangelicals tends to be some of the last believers in certain aspects of Freudian sexual development theory.
    Actually a mention of Freud was one thing that jumped out to me in my first skim of the link Peguy posted. It did cause me to pause and wonder if his theories were still being applied. Although to the article's credit it was simply suggesting various aetiological theories and went on to say that Freud's theories had been "repeatedly revised, criticized and corrected by the master's disciples".

    The article does accept that there are biological factors, although they consider environmental influences a larger influence.

  9. #109
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Geez. 10 pages in less than 24 hours. I guess this is what happens when you don't discuss homosexuality and religion for a few months.

    I'm staying out of it for now.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  10. #110
    Sniffles
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    More proof of how Christianity hates homosexuals. :rolli:

    "It is deplorable that homosexual persons have been and are the object of violent malice in speech or in action. Such treatment deserves condemnation from the Church's pastors wherever it occurs. It reveals a kind of disregard for others which endangers the most fundamental principles of a healthy society. The intrinsic dignity of each person must always be respected in word, in action and in law."
    --Pastoral Care for Homosexuals: The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith

    Of course it also goes on to say: "But the proper reaction to crimes committed against homosexual persons should not be to claim that the homosexual condition is not disordered."

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