Ubermensch in Real Life

[Savage Idealist]

Have there been, or were there ever, any Ubermensch individuals at all in history? I think Fredrich Nietzche said that there weren't any before his time (with the exception of a few individuals, like Napoleon), but surely there must have been some during the twentieth century. What people like Theodore Roosevelt, Adolf Hitler, Ghandi, or Martin Luther King Jr.?

 

[nozflubber]

actually the professor i had for existentialism said Nietzsche himself identified 2 in his lifetime: Emerson, and von Goethe.

he did sing praises about napoleon, though.


The only Ubermesnch i've myself identified/suspected is the fictional character hannibal lecter. Totally out of control, and totally principled. I don't think it's easy to identify any real life Ubermensch - it's too murky. It's never really clear how/where/why those people you mentioned acquired their values and principles, and doubt can easily be cast on any other historical figure.

Kurt cobain, maybe.

 

[Mole]

In real life the ubermensch were the SS.

 

[nozflubber]

The SS (and Hitler) might have used Nietzsche's writings as support and justification for what they were doing to the jews, but that doesn't make them Ubermensch.

 

[Savage Idealist]

The Nazis were the complete opposite of the Ubermensch; they blindly followed the orders of their government; they were nothing but shepple masses who committed atrocities because they were instructed to. Hitler himslef may have been an Ubermensch, but some facts that I have heard about him reveal him to be a very normal man, a person who was human, all too human if you will.

Aside from that I am fairly certain that Theodore Roosevelt was an Ubermensch; he was a larger than life character who did one badass thing after another, he possess his own views onto the world, he was charismatic, fearless, and bold; all in all he was almost like no individual before him and he was truely superior.

 

[nozflubber]

The Nazis were the complete opposite of the Ubermensch; they blindly followed the orders of their government; they were nothing but shepple masses who committed atrocities because they were instructed to. Hitler himslef may have been an Ubermensch, but some facts that I have heard about him reveal him to be a very normal man, a person who was human, all too human if you will.

Not to mention, the very core of their ideology reaks of what Nietzsche lamented the most against: Nay-saying. And there's no bigger Naysayer than one who says "All _____ should die".

I can definitely see why you think Teddy was one. I admire how he pushed on in the jungles of south America when it was very reckless to do so.

 

[Mole]

Ubermensch and Untermensch

The SS (and Hitler) might have used Nietzsche's writings as support and justification for what they were doing to the jews, but that doesn't make them Ubermensch.

Good heavens, the SS described themselves as ubermensch and the Jews as untermensch.

The SS were the perfection of Eugenics, begun in the USA just like MBTI.

And although the Germans no longer call themselves ubermensch (supermen) or the Jews untermensch (under-men or inferior-men), the Americans have never quite got over Eugenics and keep ramming superman (ubermensch) down our throats.

But unfortunately for the Americans, the ubermensch and the untermensch are stuck in our gullets.

In other words, we have had a gutful.

 

[KDude]

How are Gandhi and MLK Jr. ubermensch types? They based much of their philosophy on Tolstoy's very Christian, very altruistic, very not-Nietzschean book "The Kingdom of God is Within You".

The only Ubermesnch i've myself identified/suspected is the fictional character hannibal lecter..

Fictional? How about Bart Simpson

 

[Savage Idealist]

Originally posted by Victor
Good heavens, the SS described themselves as ubermensch and the Jews as untermensch.

The SS deluded themsleves into thinking that they were ubermensch material, despite the fact that they weren't.

Originally posted by KDude
How are Gandhi and MLK Jr. ubermensch types? They based much of their philosophy on Tolstoy's very Christian, very altruistic, very not-Nietzschean book "The Kingdom of God is Within You".

I beleive that they're ubermensch type people because they rejected the values of their time (blind racial intolerance) and replaced them with new ones (equality for people of all races), all the while encouraging thousands of people to do the same. Yeah they were non-violent, but last I checked being violent towards an antagonistic outdated social force wasn't one of the criteria of the ubermensch.

 

[Mole]

In Real Life

We can't understand the ubermensch without understanding the untermensch.

Ubermensch don't stand by themselves. For an ubermensch needs an untermensch to define themselves, just as the untermensch needs the ubermensch for definition.

And unfortunately those who valorise ubermensch tend to be intermensch.

But being an untermensch is so painful, we try to escape into ubermensch.

Superman, the ur-ubermensch, and superheroes are adored and imitated by little boys, who are by definition untermensch who want to grow into ubermensch.

But ask yourself which country in the world has given us the fantasy of superman and super heroes? Is it the country with the largest economy in the world but whose citizens have a paranoid view of the rest of the world? Do these citizens feel they are untermensch and compensate with fantasies of ubermensch?

The reality is no ubermensch without untermensch.

 

[nozflubber]

We can't understand the ubermensch without understanding the untermensch.

From an historical viewpoint, maybe. But from a philosophical viewpoint, you couldn't be more wrong. Nietzsche never mentioned anything about untermensch. Nietzsche set forth what one ought to be, NOT what one ought NOT to be. There's a difference.

Go to the horse's mouth to understand the concept of ubermensch with all due fairness, and no other source.

 

[Mole]

The Role Model for Untermensch

From an historical viewpoint, maybe. But from a philosophical viewpoint, you couldn't be more wrong. Nietzsche never mentioned anything about untermensch. Nietzsche set forth what one ought to be, NOT what one ought NOT to be. There's a difference.

Go to the horse's mouth to understand the concept of ubermensch with all due fairness, and no other source.

Nietzsche himself was an untermensch, riddled with disease and mentally ill.

And being an untermensch, Nietzsche sought to escape into the fantasy of the ubermensch.

And from then on Nietzsche has been the role model for all untermensch seeking to escape into the ubermensch.

Nietzsche's popularity can only be understood in psychological terms.

Nietzsche will always be popular with adolescents wishing they were men.

 

[Savage Idealist]

^ A desire to ascend to an Ubermensch status doesn't necessarilly mean that the one who wishes to do so is an untermensch. I desire to establish myself one day as an ubermensch, but I am certainly not an untermensch. But even then if an untermensch really desired to do so, they could attempt to become an ubermensch, and perhpas if they possess enough strong will that goal will be possible.

But anyway is this really any relevant to the original discussion that I initiated? I really don't give a rats ass about abundant untermensch people, I'm more concerned about analyzing who rare ubermesch people of society.

 

[Mole]

The Psychopathic Personality and the Ubermensch

^ A desire to ascend to an Ubermensch status doesn't necessarilly mean that the one who wishes to do so is an untermensch. I desire to establish myself one day as an ubermensch, but I am certainly not an untermensch. But even then if an untermensch really desired to do so, they could attempt to become an ubermensch, and perhpas if they possess enough strong will that goal will be possible.

But anyway is this really any relevant to the original discussion that I initiated? I really don't give a rats ass about abundant untermensch people, I'm more concerned about analyzing who rare ubermesch people of society.

The ubermensch are frauds. They are not comfortable in their own skins, they are not comfortable with their own vulnerability nor the vulnerability of others.

They want to be ubermensch to avoid their own vulnerability and to take advantage of the vulnerability of others.

They hate their own vulnerability and never discover that vulnerability is the very basis of creativity.

The ubermensch are devoid of empathy and creativity and indeed the ubermensch are psychopathic personalities.

 

[nozflubber]

You know i didn't agree with your earlier posts, but that ^ has an interesting point....

It's very existentialist of you to assert that the Ubermensch are trying desperately to cover up their own anxieties and inner troubles of turmoil. Very Heideggerian, ironically

What is an Ubermensch trying to prove, if anything? hmmmm

 

[Savage Idealist]

Originally posted by Victor
The ubermensch are frauds. They are not comfortable in their own skins, they are not comfortable with their own vulnerability nor the vulnerability of others.

They want to be ubermensch to avoid their own vulnerability and to take advantage of the vulnerability of others.

They hate their own vulnerability and never discover that vulnerability is the very basis of creativity.

This is nothing more than a common miscinception of the Ubermensch. While an Ubermensch may appear psychopathic i nartue, and they certainly could, that does not mean that Ubermensch and psychopath are synonomis with one another. Also certain Ubermensch people become Ubermensch without even knowing so, as previous examples that I have stated show, one does not need be some wannabee in order to be an ubermensch.

The ubermensch are devoid of empathy and creativity and indeed the ubermensch are psychopathic personalities.

Oh this is just bull-shit. An ubermensch can most definitely possess a creative streak, I'm not certain where you drew that ridiculous accusation (out of your ass I'm sure) and it's blantently false. The same principle can be said for empathy (and for the record while a psychopath may lack empathy they usaully are very creative), now please stop derailing my thread and at least try to get back on subject.

 

[nozflubber]

Well hold on here....

I think some Psychopaths could be Ubermensch(UM), but not every Psychopath is an Ubermensch(UM), obviously.

To me, it's a valid question to ask whether the UM is more prone to the destructive and utterly hurtful behaviors of psychopathy. This interests me as a Utilitarian of sorts because while the UM is admired and aspired to for obvious reasons, as you yourself have laid out, I don't think its typical to stop and consider what repercussion there would be if say, 50 % of the population miraculously became UM. I think it could be disastrous.

To try and un-de-rail the thread, let's put it in this rather Kantian way - if everyone acted like Teddy Roosevelt, what would the world be like?

 

[Lark]

I dont believe so, its highly subjective and I'm not sure its anything other than a kind of ideological percept which can motivate normal people to make a greater effort, that's all.

 

[Savage Idealist]

Origianlly posted by nozflubber
Well hold on here....

I think some Psychopaths could be Ubermensch(UM), but not every Psychopath is an Ubermensch(UM), obviously.

To me, it's a valid question to ask whether the UM is more prone to the destructive and utterly hurtful behaviors of psychopathy. This interests me as a Utilitarian of sorts because while the UM is admired and aspired to for obvious reasons, as you yourself have laid out, I don't think its typical to stop and consider what repercussion there would be if say, 50 % of the population miraculously became UM. I think it could be disastrous.

Well the UM is indeed more destructive of certain social norms, but unlike a run-of-the-mill psychopath who violates norms in a reckless and chaotic manner, the UM analyzes certain norms and decides whther they hold any relevent value to society, discarding them in favor of newer, better social norms. Now if 50% of a society were UM, I have no idea how that society would funtion. I suppose that it could funtion as a super society, or it might be pure and utter chaos, I'm entirely not sure.

To try and un-de-rail the thread, let's put it in this rather Kantian way - if everyone acted like Teddy Roosevelt, what would the world be like?

I imagine that such a society would funtion marvelously, as Teddy Roosevelt was not only an extrodinary leader, but also someone who was committed to doing responsible tasks for the greater sake of society.

Origianlly posted by Lark
I dont believe so, its highly subjective and I'm not sure its anything other than a kind of ideological percept which can motivate normal people to make a greater effort, that's all.

How exactly is judging UM people in history subjective? If people in history fit the criteria for being an UM, then logically they would be UM.

 

[redacted]

Damn, I thought I'd be able to figure out what the hell ubermensch really means by reading those 19 posts.

Still completely confused.