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  1. #51
    Courage is immortality Valiant's Avatar
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    Of course übermenschen exists.
    Some people are just made out of a stronger fiber than others.
    Competency, nerves, intelligence, will, endurance, valor.

    I have never fallen for the illusion that all men are equal. That's bullshit.
    However, it is the duty of the strong to protect the weak, the man with good eyesight to lead the blind.

    What Hitler did was really freaking stupid and evil.
    In my experience, jews as a culture tend to be, if anything, more competent, persistent and full of spirit than most other people.

    Mightier than the tread of marching armies is the power of an idea whose time has come

  2. #52
    Alexander the Terrible yenom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YourLocalJesus View Post
    Of course übermenschen exists.
    Some people are just made out of a stronger fiber than others.
    Competency, nerves, intelligence, will, endurance, valor.

    I have never fallen for the illusion that all men are equal. That's bullshit.
    However, it is the duty of the strong to protect the weak, the man with good eyesight to lead the blind.

    What Hitler did was really freaking stupid and evil.
    In my experience, jews as a culture tend to be, if anything, more competent, persistent and full of spirit than most other people.
    Sorry, thats just a load of BS.

    What you said the first two paragrapths contradict the last paragraph.
    Your beliefs are exactly the same as Hitler's.
    The fear of poverty turns people into slaves of money.

    "In this Caesar there are many Mariuses"~Sulla

    Conquer your inner demons first before you conquer the world.

  3. #53
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cloud View Post
    Sorry, thats just a load of BS.

    What you said the first two paragrapths contradict the last paragraph.
    Your beliefs are exactly the same as Hitler's.
    Yeah, I dont see how you get that at all.

    The points YLJ made in the first two sentences where pretty much congruent with your average US conservative or liberal or even a conservative democrat, you're either very ignorant about what Hitler's beliefs where or you're just being rude.

  4. #54
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YourLocalJesus View Post
    Of course übermenschen exists.
    Some people are just made out of a stronger fiber than others.
    Competency, nerves, intelligence, will, endurance, valor.

    I have never fallen for the illusion that all men are equal. That's bullshit.
    However, it is the duty of the strong to protect the weak, the man with good eyesight to lead the blind.

    What Hitler did was really freaking stupid and evil.
    In my experience, jews as a culture tend to be, if anything, more competent, persistent and full of spirit than most other people.
    To be honest, in my familiarity with it, Nietzsche's version of the Ubermensch is premodern, something like the Pharoahs, so they'd not necessarily worried about the weak.

    I'm very much in agreement with you that people are cut from different stuff, they do develop differently and how that's determined exactly is something which interests me a lot, I'm also very interested in the public discussion of how determinism operates because I think that could influence how it operates too. For the better.

    However I'm not sure how that relates to the issue of equality, too often equality is mixed up with uniformity in peoples minds, if people say that two things are equal they mean they are the same. I dont consider equality that way really.

  5. #55
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonkavision View Post
    I don't think Martin Luther King fits the concept of Ubermensch, as described by Nietzsche.

    According to Wikipedia ( Übermensch - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ):


    It's well known that MLK was a devout Christian, and though I don't know exactly what brand of theology he subscribed to, I think it's safe to assume he believed in some kind of afterlife or other-worldly hope--effectively disqualifying him from being considered a Nietzschean Ubermensch.

    Does anybody actually dispute that?
    There's a subset of Christianity, mostly the liberal sects like eastern Quakers and some Anglicans, that is focused on "social justice" as a (or maybe the only) manifestation of the Kingdom of God. They believe that it's not in some imaginary heaven- it's here on earth. I think that kind of Christian could be an ubermensch, and I think MLK Jr. was that kind of Christian.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  6. #56
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cloud View Post
    What you said the first two paragrapths contradict the last paragraph. Your beliefs are exactly the same as Hitler's.
    Gratz everyone.
    We made it until Post #52 before someone Godwin'ed up the works.
    That was admirable for a thread like this one.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #57
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Look I found him:

    [YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mh9lZ5-pqA"].[/YOUTUBE]
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  8. #58
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    I actually think this is a pretty good analysis.

    Of course, one of the "subjective" things about the idea of an ubermensch is that one could be independently minded enough to say (regarding MLK), "I think Christian mysticism is great, and I could really give a fuck what anyone says about it", and thus still be an ubermensch. In other words, one could ubermensch the concept that an ubermensch couldn't appreciate and take seriously previously established values.
    Its possible for a person to be an independently minded Christian mystic, however, its unclear if Martin Luther was one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    Sup buddy?

    Anyway, with your view, it seems impossible for a person to truly be an ubermensch, as just existing in reality means your cognition is affected by external factors. Your morals are just a function of that, so in that sense, there's no such thing as independent morals..
    Although its obvious that the morality of everyone is in some sense influenced by the external world, a person can critically evaluate what he observes in the world. An indepenent thinker does that and a person who lacks autonomy of thought does not, an Overman is an independent thinker. In this case, you'd need a certain degree of independent thought to be considered sufficiently independent to be an Overman, you don't need to be entirely independently minded.

    Your criticism presupposes that an Overman by definition must be completely independently minded, however, Nietzsche made no such assertion. His view can therefore be salvaged by defining sufficient independence as partial rather than complete autonomy of thought.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wonkavision View Post
    I don't think Martin Luther King fits the concept of Ubermensch, as described by Nietzsche.

    According to Wikipedia ( Übermensch - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ):


    It's well known that MLK was a devout Christian, and though I don't know exactly what brand of theology he subscribed to, I think it's safe to assume he believed in some kind of afterlife or other-worldly hope--effectively disqualifying him from being considered a Nietzschean Ubermensch.

    Does anybody actually dispute that?.
    I'd have to say that the most conventional interpretation of Christianity is inconsistent with the kernel of Nietzsche's moral philosophy. However, Christianity is and has always been a multifarious theology. Its possible for a Christian to interpret the other-worldly writings in the scripture as merely figurative expressions that extol self-empowerment and the joys of this life. In that sense, it is possible for an Overman to be a Christian mystic.

    Another thing to remember about Nietzsche is that although he was vehemently opposed to the idea of the after-life, he viewed the refutation of philosophies that promote the idea of the after-life as only means to an end rather than as an end in itself.

    Nietzsche first and foremost taught that people should embrace life to the fullest, however, in order to do that, they typically need to renounce their ambitions for the after-life. If a person can fully embrace the present life without renouncing his ambitions for the after-life, there is no reason why he cannot be an Overman.

    However, I don't believe that Martin Luther King fully embraced the joys of the present life and for that, among many other reasons, cannot be considered an Ubermensch.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    There's a subset of Christianity, mostly the liberal sects like eastern Quakers and some Anglicans, that is focused on "social justice" as a (or maybe the only) manifestation of the Kingdom of God. They believe that it's not in some imaginary heaven- it's here on earth. I think that kind of Christian could be an ubermensch, and I think MLK Jr. was that kind of Christian.
    Thank you, you've found a concrete example of the theoretical point I was trying to get across. I am no sure if Martin Luther King interpreted the Biblical writings about the after-life as figurative rather than literal, however.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  9. #59
    Courage is immortality Valiant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cloud View Post
    Sorry, thats just a load of BS.

    What you said the first two paragrapths contradict the last paragraph.
    Your beliefs are exactly the same as Hitler's.

    Heh, you're a funny guy.
    I think i'm going to throw you a nice parade, mein kamerad.




    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Yeah, I dont see how you get that at all.

    The points YLJ made in the first two sentences where pretty much congruent with your average US conservative or liberal or even a conservative democrat, you're either very ignorant about what Hitler's beliefs where or you're just being rude.
    I am anarcho-liberal, I guess.
    And yes, he's got some beef with me.
    Don't know why he's not on my ignore list yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    To be honest, in my familiarity with it, Nietzsche's version of the Ubermensch is premodern, something like the Pharoahs, so they'd not necessarily worried about the weak.

    I'm very much in agreement with you that people are cut from different stuff, they do develop differently and how that's determined exactly is something which interests me a lot, I'm also very interested in the public discussion of how determinism operates because I think that could influence how it operates too. For the better.

    However I'm not sure how that relates to the issue of equality, too often equality is mixed up with uniformity in peoples minds, if people say that two things are equal they mean they are the same. I dont consider equality that way really.

    Well, those are Nietzsche's definitions.
    I wonder how being an inbred son of a bitch who inherited a job that he can't get fired from makes a person an übermensch.
    Not that it would be impossible, I seem to recall a couple of Ptolemaic dynasty Pharaohs being very well-read.


    What is your idea on how it is determined?

    Equality is just a twisted and unrealistic idea, if you ask me.
    I'd like to think of it as people having certain basic rights, instead.
    One shouldn't take away these rights or violate them unless provoked.
    But... The whole thing is ridiculous. Some people are more, and some are less.

    In my experience there are some you don't ever notice.
    Others are forces of nature, and most fall in between those two.

    Mightier than the tread of marching armies is the power of an idea whose time has come

  10. #60
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    Although its obvious that the morality of everyone is in some sense influenced by the external world, a person can critically evaluate what he observes in the world. An indepenent thinker does that and a person who lacks autonomy of thought does not, an Overman is an independent thinker. In this case, you'd need a certain degree of independent thought to be considered sufficiently independent to be an Overman, you don't need to be entirely independently minded.

    Your criticism presupposes that an Overman by definition must be completely independently minded, however, Nietzsche made no such assertion. His view can therefore be salvaged by defining sufficient independence as partial rather than complete autonomy of thought.
    Right. My point was that it's always going to be arbitrary where the threshold point is -- where to one side you're an overman and to the other side you aren't.

    So that's the problem I see with this discussion. It's impossible that everyone would have the same threshold point in their personal view of the term.


    I see no problem with terms that have arbitrary threshold points in some spectrum. But there's a problem when people don't keep that in mind and allow for a bit of discrepancy between two peoples' views on the subject.

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