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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    ^okay fine my statement is not necessarily true. you win the logic war.

    seriously. you do.

    I just didn't want to have the logic war. I wanted to get a point across that was pretty damn simple. If you didn't focus on the fact that it isn't necessarily true in every single case, you would have understood what I meant fine.

    I guess I got all pissed off because it seemed like you were sitting there refreshing until you could find a post with some wording you can find a logical flaw with. Well, that's great, and I'm sure you can prove your points that way...but you miss the substance of other people's opinions and ideas by throwing out 95% of what they mean.

    You don't seem like a stupid guy, and I guess it just seemed childish to me that you chose not to spend a bit of mental energy intuiting the meaning I was trying to convey.
    The issue was not that I didn't understand what you were trying to say, it was that I found tons of problems (or possibly just one major problem) with your construction.

    I wasn't just nitpicking.

    I genuinely don't think it's fair to say that our morals are completely defined by external factors, nor, to a lesser degree of acuteness, that our morals are so determined by external factors that we should deem "independent morality" a contradiction in terms.

    That's all... and I don't think it's at all an unfair point to make...

    I think any truly intelligent person would want to be wary of closing their mind regarding that assumption.

    You seem like an intelligent guy to me, and, as such, I genuinely believed you were walking down a path that you ought to reconsider.

    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    My original point before getting sidetracked was that I found it odd that people were acting as if whether or not a person is an ubermensch was so completely binary. Nothing in anyone's explanation gave me any reason to believe it wouldn't just be a spectrum. So, can't this thread just be boiled down to "people that are beyond some arbitrary threshold in the multidimensional space of ubermenschness"?
    In my opinion, that spectrum would be something like Heidegger's idea of authenticity: with inauthentic on one side, and authentic on the other.

    Also, in my opinion, I believe they were both really just expressing the self-importance of their own Fi values.

    It would basically, translated into typological terminology, be like saying:

    Authenticity : Inauthenticity
    Fi : Fe

    or

    Fi = Authenticity
    Fe = Inauthenticity

    There is a potential deeper contradiction in there as well (it's actually essentially the same one I pointed to earlier about MLK), but that's life, ain't it?

    Dissoi Logoi...

  2. #42
    Retired Member Wonkavision's Avatar
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    I don't think Martin Luther King fits the concept of Ubermensch, as described by Nietzsche.

    According to Wikipedia ( Übermensch - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ):
    Nietzsche introduces the concept of the Übermensch in contrast to the other-worldliness of Christianity: Zarathustra proclaims the Übermensch to be the meaning of the earth and admonishes his audience to ignore those who promise other-worldly hopes in order to draw them away from the earth. The turn away from the earth is prompted, he says, by a dissatisfaction with life, a dissatisfaction that causes one to create another world in which those who made one unhappy in this life are tormented. The Übermensch is not driven into other worlds away from this one.
    It's well known that MLK was a devout Christian, and though I don't know exactly what brand of theology he subscribed to, I think it's safe to assume he believed in some kind of afterlife or other-worldly hope--effectively disqualifying him from being considered a Nietzschean Ubermensch.

    Does anybody actually dispute that?




    I think it's worth noting that, according to Wikipedia:
    There is no overall consensus regarding the precise meaning of the Übermensch
    So the concept of Ubermensch is basically open to interpretation. I'm only giving MY interpretation here, and it is in no way intended to be definitive or dogmatic.
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  3. #43
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    The issue was not that I didn't understand what you were trying to say, it was that I found tons of problems (or possibly just one major problem) with your construction.

    I wasn't just nitpicking.

    I genuinely don't think it's fair to say that our morals are completely defined by external factors, nor, to a lesser degree of acuteness, that our morals are so determined by external factors that we should deem "independent morality" a contradiction in terms.

    That's all... and I don't think it's at all an unfair point to make...

    I think any truly intelligent person would want to be wary of closing their mind regarding that assumption.

    You seem like an intelligent guy to me, and, as such, I genuinely believed you were walking down a path that you ought to reconsider.
    Wait, so are you saying the one major problem you saw was that you thought I was saying our morals are completely defined by external factors? And now you know I don't think that's true?

    If so, good.

    Because it's not the only factor.

    But actually, now that I think about it, I can argue that it is (I'm really beginning to think I'm ENTP now)--
    -Our morals are a function of external and internal factors (I hope you don't disagree with that assumption).
    -But even the internal factors are a function of the gene pool/meiosis/mutation, which are external factors too.
    -So internal factors are really external factors.

    What would it really mean to have independent morals anyway? I just want to know the way people are using that term because now I'm just confused.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonkavision View Post
    I don't think Martin Luther King fits the concept of Ubermensch, as described by Nietzsche.

    According to Wikipedia ( Übermensch - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ):

    It's well known that MLK was a devout Christian, and though I don't know exactly what brand of theology he subscribed to, I think it's safe to assume he believed in some kind of afterlife or other-worldly hope--effectively disqualifying him from being considered a Nietzschean Ubermensch.

    Does anybody actually dispute that?
    I don't think believing in an afterlife would disqualify one from being an ubermensch.

    Now, to believe in an afterlife, in order to draw oneself away from this world, due to the fact that you are dissatisfied with this life, well, yes, that would disqualify you from ubermenschitude.

    As such, it's still debatable whether MLK really achieved such a state.

  5. #45
    Retired Member Wonkavision's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    I don't think believing in an afterlife would disqualify one from being an ubermensch.

    Now, to believe in an after life, in order to draw oneself away from this world, due to the fact that you are dissatisfied with this life, well, yes, that would disqualify you from ubermenschitude.

    As such, it's still debatable whether MLK really achieved such a state.
    Yeah.

    And, interestingly enough, I can't find a single quote from MLK to confirm that he even believed in an afterlife (or salvation through the substitutionary atonement of Christ, or a personal God, or anything else that would tie him to Christian mysticism!)

    I think there are a lot of other things that disqualify MLK from being considered an Ubermensch---namely his altruism and his belief in "Good and Evil"---but demonstrating that would require more effort than I'm willing to put in at the moment.
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  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonkavision View Post
    And, interestingly enough, I can't find a single quote from MLK to confirm that he even believed in an afterlife (or salvation through the substitutionary atonement of Christ, or a personal God, or anything else that would tie him to Christian mysticism!)
    To be quite honest: this doesn't surprise me one bit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wonkavision View Post
    I think there are a lot of other things that disqualify MLK from being considered an Ubermensch---namely his altruism and his belief in "Good and Evil"---but demonstrating that would require more effort than I'm willing to put in at the moment.
    One could respectably argue that Nietzsche thought Jesus was a superman.

    I definitely think that altruism need not disqualify one from ubermenschitude, and there are entire chapters from Nietzsche's work that essentially say as much.

    As for belief in "Good and Evil", why couldn't one Zarathustrify Nietzsche's Zarathustrification of Zarathustra?

    Who's to say Nietzsche even gets to have the last word on what the ubermensch really is? What if Nietzsche's thought was just one step on the road to the true ubermensch?

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    Wait, so are you saying the one major problem you saw was that you thought I was saying our morals are completely defined by external factors? And now you know I don't think that's true?

    If so, good.

    Because it's not the only factor.
    I would also add my "nor, to a lesser degree of acuteness, that our morals are so determined by external factors that we should deem 'independent morality' a contradiction in terms."

    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    But actually, now that I think about it, I can argue that it is (I'm really beginning to think I'm ENTP now)--
    -Our morals are a function of external and internal factors (I hope you don't disagree with that assumption).
    -But even the internal factors are a function of the gene pool/meiosis/mutation, which are external factors too.
    -So internal factors are really external factors.
    I won't take umbrage with axiom 1; but I will take umbrage with axiom 2.

    The internal factors are not by any means necessarily and merely a "function of the gene pool/meiosis/mutation"...

    What of something called "the will"? I believe it was rather important to Nietzsche's philosophy...

    (And if you want to start down the road of saying that the will is simply a result of external factors, I'm just lettin you know now: I'm gunna call reductionism on you.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    What would it really mean to have independent morals anyway? I just want to know the way people are using that term because now I'm just confused.
    It would mean that your morals and opinions come from yourself.

  8. #48
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    omg you two...

    get a (debate) room!! that or some rockem sockem robots.

  9. #49
    Alexander the Terrible yenom's Avatar
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    yea him

    The fear of poverty turns people into slaves of money.

    "In this Caesar there are many Mariuses"~Sulla

    Conquer your inner demons first before you conquer the world.

  10. #50
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Frodo's an Übermensch or more like Überhobbit ?
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

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