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  1. #21
    Senor Membrane
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    Damn, I thought I'd be able to figure out what the hell ubermensch really means by reading those 19 posts.
    I have trouble spelling ubermänch in my head while reading this. It is superman in english, goddammit! :steam:

  2. #22
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savage Brain View Post
    What people like Theodore Roosevelt, Adolf Hitler, Ghandi, or Martin Luther King Jr.?
    An Ubermetsch or Overmman thinks for himself, does not allow external systems of morality to control his views, remains mentally strong and lives his life in accordance to his independent ethical values.

    Napoleon was not only a brute conqueror, he was also an intellectual with a great ambition to promote the culture of Enlightenment. The same cannot be said about Hitler. Hitler lacked the discipline of thought that Nietzsche's Overman greatly valued. Martin Luther King's independence of thought from Christian mysticism is questionable and Nietzsche would likely condemn him for succumbing to slave morality. Ghandi was a thorough-going altruist with ascetic tendencies, he denied himself sexual pleasures and engaged in fasting. Nietzsche regarded such practices as self-flagellation, in his view, to engage in self-denial means to say no to life. Roosevelt's independence from "slave morality" is questionable and its unclear if he pursued his objectives with true Nietzschean fervor.
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    An Ubermetsch or Overmman thinks for himself, does not allow external systems of morality to control his views, remains mentally strong and lives his life in accordance to his independent ethical values.

    Napoleon was not only a brute conqueror, he was also an intellectual with a great ambition to promote the culture of Enlightenment. The same cannot be said about Hitler. Hitler lacked the discipline of thought that Nietzsche's Overman greatly valued. Martin Luther King's independence of thought from Christian mysticism is questionable and Nietzsche would likely condemn him for succumbing to slave morality. Ghandi was a thorough-going altruist with ascetic tendencies, he denied himself sexual pleasures and engaged in fasting. Nietzsche regarded such practices as self-flagellation, in his view, to engage in self-denial means to say no to life. Roosevelt's independence from "slave morality" is questionable and its unclear if he pursued his objectives with true Nietzschean fervor.
    I actually think this is a pretty good analysis.

    Of course, one of the "subjective" things about the idea of an ubermensch is that one could be independently minded enough to say (regarding MLK), "I think Christian mysticism is great, and I could really give a fuck what anyone says about it", and thus still be an ubermensch. In other words, one could ubermensch the concept that an ubermensch couldn't appreciate and take seriously previously established values.

  4. #24
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    An Ubermetsch or Overmman thinks for himself, does not allow external systems of morality to control his views, remains mentally strong and lives his life in accordance to his independent ethical values.

    Napoleon was not only a brute conqueror, he was also an intellectual with a great ambition to promote the culture of Enlightenment. The same cannot be said about Hitler. Hitler lacked the discipline of thought that Nietzsche's Overman greatly valued. Martin Luther King's independence of thought from Christian mysticism is questionable and Nietzsche would likely condemn him for succumbing to slave morality. Ghandi was a thorough-going altruist with ascetic tendencies, he denied himself sexual pleasures and engaged in fasting. Nietzsche regarded such practices as self-flagellation, in his view, to engage in self-denial means to say no to life. Roosevelt's independence from "slave morality" is questionable and its unclear if he pursued his objectives with true Nietzschean fervor.
    Sup buddy?

    Anyway, with your view, it seems impossible for a person to truly be an ubermensch, as just existing in reality means your cognition is affected by external factors. Your morals are just a function of that, so in that sense, there's no such thing as independent morals.

    I guess there's some threshold point or something? I dunno...I can't figure out why everyone is treating it like a clear yes or no thing.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    Anyway, with your view, it seems impossible for a person to truly be an ubermensch, as just existing in reality means your cognition is affected by external factors. Your morals are just a function of that, so in that sense, there's no such thing as independent morals.
    That statement is so riddled with presuppositions I don't even want to start disentangling it all...

  6. #26
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    Thumbs down The bigger the lie the easier it is to believe.

    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    Gandhi was a thorough-going altruist with ascetic tendencies, he denied himself sexual pleasures...
    Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi slept with naked virgins on either side of him. Today he would be arrested for child abuse.

    His politics led to the violent partition of India and a state of perpetual warfare between nuclear Pakistan and nuclear India.

    And yet we are constantly told Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi was a non-violent ascetic.

    The bigger the lie the easier it is to believe.

  7. #27
    DoubleplusUngoodNonperson
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Of course, one of the "subjective" things about the idea of an ubermensch is that one could be independently minded enough to say (regarding MLK), "I think Christian mysticism is great, and I could really give a fuck what anyone says about it", and thus still be an ubermensch. In other words, one could ubermensch the concept that an ubermensch couldn't appreciate and take seriously previously established values.

    This is important to remember. We cannot logically infer that all Christians were of slave morality as Nietzsche described simply because many/most Christians are like that. Nietzsche wasn't against Christian mysticism or thought in general (or anything else for that matter because he would have been a naysayer himself and hence a hypocrite), he was against becoming a part of that for all the wrong reasons. If MLK had found his own, independent personal reasons outside of "be this way because we say so", then we cannot rule him out as UM.


    Same thing with Gandhi - he could have been saying yes to abstinence for his own independent spiritual reasons, such as the pursuit of wisdom, rather than saying no to sexuality like a Naysayer would. It's about the inner motivations, which, again, we unfortunately don't really have access to. It's just "for fun" if anything, as I think one of you already stated.

  8. #28
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    That statement is so riddled with presuppositions I don't even want to start disentangling it all...
    Easy to untangle.

    It's impossible to have morals that aren't a function of the socialization process. Period.

    That is all.

  9. #29
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    Apparently you don't see all the assumptions made there...

    Such as:

    - the meaning of morals
    - the meaning of "to be a function of"
    - the meaning of "the socialization process"

    And, if we use exactly what you said:

    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    Anyway, with your view, it seems impossible for a person to truly be an ubermensch, as just existing in reality means your cognition is affected by external factors. Your morals are just a function of that, so in that sense, there's no such thing as independent morals.
    - the meaning of cognition
    - cognition's relation to morality
    - the nature of the effect external factors have upon cognition, and how this relates to morality
    - the meaning of "independent morals"

  10. #30
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    Thumbs down Superman and the Will to Power

    Quote Originally Posted by nolla View Post
    I have trouble spelling ubermänch in my head while reading this. It is superman in english, goddammit! :steam:
    Ah, the voice of sanity from Finland, recently found by Newsweek to be the best country in the world.

    And yes it is 'superman'.

    Superman is not a liberal democrat. He is not democratic at all. Superman is the supreme expression of the triumph of the will.

    And not only is superman the complete expression of the triumph of the will, but he is the expression of adolescent fantasy.

    For liberal democracy limits power while superman maximisers power.

    Superman not only maximisers power but he had no sense of humour.

    There is nothing funny about superman, nor is he disabled, jewish, catholic or gay.

    Superman is not an artist, a scientist, a musician, a philosopher or even a husband and father.

    Superman is straight out of Nietzsche's book, "The Will to Power", and "Mein Kampf".

    And superman is sold to adolescents all over the world by the world's hegemon.

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