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  1. #31
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    You know what they say about people talking to invisible friends and making assumptions out of nowhere in medical circles.
    Yeah I believe they're called Frenchmen. They really pulled a good one at Lourdes now didn't they? :rolli:

  2. #32
    Senior Member InsatiableCuriosity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    This is the prevailing perspective, but it is based on a fundamental misunderstanding... the choice has never been between good and evil.

    The choice is between life and death.
    This is my personal perspective and I do not expect anyone else to believe as I do, nor do I expect to persuade others that my belief is the only right belief:

    I'm sorry Oberon, but that makes no sense to me either. I find that these constructs do not feel truthful - religion per se feels like a means to divide the people of the world into sects, each of which wars on another while each feels superior to the others and warns that any who believe otherwise are not "chosen". The atrocities that are inflicted on this basis throughout history, to me at least, reek of those seeking power over others, to hide or manipulate any truths that existed in the words of the prophets to their own ends, and control their adherents.

    I do not deny miracles, and definitely believe in an unfathomable, supreme presence that is so vast I couldn't even begin to imagine or describe. For me at the moment however, no established religion completely meets my personal spiritual beliefs, but Gnosis and Buddhism come very close.
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  3. #33
    Senior Member Nonsensical's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halla74 View Post
    Hitler and Stalin are still in the lead.
    Hitler killed between 11 and 17 Million, and Stalin killed over 22 Million, but Christians hold God responsible for so many more deaths. I'm just saying it's blasphemy to blame it all on God. I'm taking a stab at those who wrote the Bible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    God is within us all. Does man kill? Does God kill?


    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Such as?
    To name a few:
    -Christianity says Jesus is the only way to God.
    -Christianity portrays God as an unmerciful, vengeful God.
    -It's paradoxical: it preaches love and peace yet slams down and condemns sinners.
    -Gays=EVIL
    -all other dogmas=EVIL
    Is it that by its indefiniteness it shadows forth the heartless voids and immensities of the universe, and thus stabs us from behind with the thought of annihilation, when beholding the white depths of the milky way?

  4. #34
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Funkadelic View Post
    Hitler killed between 11 and 17 Million, and Stalin killed over 22 Million, but Christians hold God responsible for so many more deaths.
    Actually I found it more ironic that all that is in the text, but Christians in general DON'T want to admit that God is ultimately responsible for all those things, being in charge as he is. Bad actions are usually laid at the feet of human beings making bad decisions... or blamed on Satan. (And if God is denoted as being responsible, it has to be argued that he does it for good reason. Even the question "Why did God allow sin = allow suffering?" is answered by saying there is a greater good involved.)

    To name a few:
    -Christianity portrays God as an unmerciful, vengeful God.
    It's portrayed as both, which is why some people see the collection of books as cobbling together two things that aren't necessarily like.

    -Christianity says Jesus is the only way to God.
    Anyone can believe that. We all believe something about salvation/goodness and how to save ourselves. There's just no way to prove something is exclusively true.

    -It's paradoxical: it preaches love and peace yet slams down and condemns sinners.
    Well, honestly, even our [secular] penal system can't agree on that. Do we want to punish offenders? Or rehabilitate them? And the same people that believe in capital punishment still believe in love and can do good things.

    There's a lot of Christians who will still treat people kindly, yet believe them to be going to hell if they don't change their ways. I think it's kind of sloppy to just assume "going to hell" means "treat them like crap." There's a lot of variation among believers.

    -Gays=EVIL
    -all other dogmas=EVIL
    See above. Aside from Westboro and the psycho right-wing radio/TV show hosts trying to whip their audiences into a submissive frenzy, people typically are holding a position of personal disagreement while restraining themselves from doing harm or wanting to do harm.

    I think what I have an issue with is the willful ignorance of the topic in question. It's very difficult to get anyone to actively examine and then discuss such things from both sides; they don't WANT to understand (even if they'd end up disagreeing), it seems very self-protective at other people's expense to me.
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  5. #35
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Funkadelic View Post
    To name a few:
    -Christianity says Jesus is the only way to God.
    -Christianity portrays God as an unmerciful, vengeful God.
    -It's paradoxical: it preaches love and peace yet slams down and condemns sinners.
    -Gays=EVIL
    -all other dogmas=EVIL
    You are saying Christianity, but it is hard in some cases to tell if you really mean Christianity or the Bible. We can talk about the Bible if you want to discuss a single source, but there are many, many forms of Christianity. The things you say are true of some forms of Christianity, but they are untrue about other forms.

    Also while some of the things above depend on how one interprets the Bible a couple of them don't represent the Bible, but they do represent how Christians sometimes fail to follow their own teachings. For example:

    -Christianity portrays God as an unmerciful, vengeful God.
    You may not believe this but the Bible consistently portrays God as merciful. One reason He doesn't appear that way is because the culture of the Old Testament is wildly different from ours. When the people of that culture heard the stories they really did view God as merciful. However when people today read these stories we think, "No way in hell is God merciful."

    To the modern reader the Old Testament God appears irrational and angry. Ironically the Jewish people have the modern stereotype of being meek and rational. Where is the disconnect? If you really want to understand the Old Testament my suggestion would be to ask a rabbi.

    -It's paradoxical: it preaches love and peace yet slams down and condemns sinners.
    I think anyone who reads the New Testament should be clear that this was not the intention of Jesus. And yet people often do contractory things. This has more to do with the contradictions within people rather than Christianity itself.
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  6. #36
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by InsatiableCuriosity View Post
    ...I find that these constructs do not feel truthful - religion per se feels like a means to divide the people of the world into sects, each of which wars on another while each feels superior to the others and warns that any who believe otherwise are not "chosen". The atrocities that are inflicted on this basis throughout history, to me at least, reek of those seeking power over others, to hide or manipulate any truths that existed in the words of the prophets to their own ends, and control their adherents.

    I do not deny miracles, and definitely believe in an unfathomable, supreme presence that is so vast I couldn't even begin to imagine or describe...
    What you have observed is, I believe, accurate. The disconnect lies between what humans do in the name of God (or in the name of religion, which is worse), and what God does (or even that He simply exists).

    Jesus reserved his anger for the most outwardly religious people he encountered, specifically for the reason that those individuals were luring others away from really knowing God. This observation is consistent with what you said earlier, which I quoted above.

    I would encourage you to do a slow contemplative read starting in Matthew chapter 5 (the Sermon on the Mount). As you're probably already aware, you'll find a lot there that rings true. As far as I can tell, this is the core of the Christ's message, and it's what keeps me coming at it from a Christian point of view.

  7. #37
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    If you really want to understand the Old Testament my suggestion would be to ask a rabbi.
    hee.... and if you do, ask a few different ones.
    Because you will probably get a different interpretation from each.

    From what I understand, the interesting thing about Judaic culture is that they are not modernistic -- they don't insist that there is only "one right/best" answer, at least not in this area. They accept it is interpretation, and two rabbis can still be both respected and considered insightful and informative even when they disagree.

    I don't really find that in Christian circles, it really does seem a lot that even when people just try "get along" and not criticize each other, there's still this underlying sense that one person is more right than the other regardless of what can be proven (that if you pushed them and MADE them state their underlying feelings, it would be "I'm right, and they're misleading people"), and the goal is to "have things right." This attitude might have been changing in recent times but still is in play.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #38
    Senior Member angelhair45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    hee.... and if you do, ask a few different ones.
    Because you will probably get a different interpretation from each.

    From what I understand, the interesting thing about Judaic culture is that they are not modernistic -- they don't insist that there is only "one right/best" answer, at least not in this area. They accept it is interpretation, and two rabbis can still be both respected and considered insightful and informative even when they disagree.

    I don't really find that in Christian circles, it really does seem a lot that even when people just try "get along" and not criticize each other, there's still this underlying sense that one person is more right than the other regardless of what can be proven (that if you pushed them and MADE them state their underlying feelings, it would be "I'm right, and they're misleading people"), and the goal is to "have things right." This attitude might have been changing in recent times but still is in play.
    You are very right. One of my biggest problems with the christian church masses is that they CANNOT deal with anyone different or anyone who disagrees with their beliefs. You are considered to be back-slidden, blinded, or a wolf in sheep's clothing if your beliefs differ from their beliefs even within the realm of Christianity and the Bible. There is absolutely no room for growth because you are not allowed to question anything for fear of doubt setting in. That atmosphere doesn't breed truth, love or acceptance.
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  9. #39
    Senior Member Nonsensical's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by angelhair45 View Post
    You are very right. One of my biggest problems with the christian church masses is that they CANNOT deal with anyone different or anyone who disagrees with their beliefs. You are considered to be back-slidden, blinded, or a wolf in sheep's clothing if your beliefs differ from their beliefs even within the realm of Christianity and the Bible. There is absolutely no room for growth because you are not allowed to question anything for fear of doubt setting in. That atmosphere doesn't breed truth, love or acceptance.
    Is it that by its indefiniteness it shadows forth the heartless voids and immensities of the universe, and thus stabs us from behind with the thought of annihilation, when beholding the white depths of the milky way?

  10. #40
    Senior Member guesswho's Avatar
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    God is not a killer. People can be killers. People can be evil. Because evil in the end is just a possibility.

    God cannot be a killer because from my point of view he is a concept. But it is the people who use concepts and doctrines as an excuse for killing and evil.

    The crusades and the inquisition are the first examples of killing in the name of god I can think of. Makes you wonder. Who has the right to judge? Who is entitled to do that?
    Is there any human capable of some ideal justice. Capable of bringing things to an ideal order?

    I have many reasons NOT to believe in God, or at least the Christian god.
    I think the biggest reason for not believing in God is that, as the creator of everything around as, the entire universe in all it's complexity...he surely did a poor job with the bible.


    "So God created human beings in his own image. In the image of God he created them".
    It's actually the other way around.

    At least that's how I see it.

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