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  1. #21
    Superwoman Red Herring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halla74 View Post
    Hitler and Stalin are still in the lead.
    yup, this would be more in the range of Pol Pot.

    As a toothfairy agnoticist (also known as pedantic atheist) I will have to temporarily accept the working hypothesis that God exists to participate in this discussion.

    Now we have to figure out if man is God´s property or his own master (meaning whether a human being has any right of existence of his own as a child would have a right of its own after being thrown into this world by its parents). If we don´t, then He can very well do as He pleases, because we are merely toys of no intrinsic value. If we do have our own value, things change.

    Yet we also have to decide if there is such a thing as free will. If there isn´t, once again we are toys. If we are free and He is allknowing but doesn´t intervene, murder, war, etc. are our own dealing; but it still leaves us with natural desasters, floods, etc. Every time one of us gets devoured by a lion, that lion (also part of the creation, whether or not less worthy than us - His supposed favourites - is yet another question to discuss) gets his dinner. Circle of life, bla bla bla. That leaves natural desasters, etc. But once you accept destruents as part of the creation, they too get their free meal.

    So via qui-profit-le-crime we come to the conclusion that the all knowing, all-loving God provides for everybody, worms and germs included. He just doesn´t always favour our species. Now why does it have to be connected to pain and suffering? That´s yet another question for another day. Back to the studio.
    The good life is one inspired by love and guided by knowledge. Neither love without knowledge, nor knowledge without love can produce a good life. - Bertrand Russell
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  2. #22
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    Abraham Lincoln is the worst mass murderer in American History. More Americans died in the Civil War than in all of the other wars put together, and it's all Lincoln's fault. For some deranged reason we honor this man as a hero, putting his face on the penny and five dollar bill, and we built a memorial in his honor. American ideals are pretty messed up, and if you look at the types of leaders that other countries honor, then you'll see that those countries are messed up too.

    You forgot the part about him freeing the slaves....what an awful awful man!

  3. #23
    Sniffles
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    Here's a nice poem that touches on this issue:

    FREEDOM
    by Charles Peguy

    GOD SPEAKS:

    When you love someone, you love him as he is.
    I alone am perfect.
    It is probably for that reason
    That I know what perfection is
    And that I demand less perfection of those poor people.
    I know how difficult it is.
    And how often, when they are struggling in their trials,
    How often do I wish and am I tempted to put my hand under their stomachs
    In order to hold them up with my big hand
    Just like a father teaching his son how to swim
    In the current of the river
    And who is divided between two ways of thinking.
    For on the one hand, if he holds him up all the time and if he holds him up too much,
    The child will depend on this and will never learn how to swim.
    But if he doesn't hold him up just at the right moment
    That child is bound to swallow more water than is healthy for him.
    In the same way, when I teach them how to swim amid their trials
    I too am divided by two ways of thinking.
    Because if I am always holding them up, if I hold them up too often,
    They will never learn how to swim by themselves.
    But if I don't hold them up just at the right moment,
    Perhaps those poor children will swallow more water than is healthy for them.
    Such is the difficulty, and it is a great one.
    And such is the doubleness itself, the two faces of the problem.
    On the one hand, they must work out their salvation for themselves. That is the rule.
    It allows of no exception. Otherwise it would not be interesting. They would not be men.
    Now I want them to be manly, to be men, and to win by themselves
    Their spurs of knighthood.
    On the other hand, they must not swallow more water than is healthy for them,
    Having made a dive into the ingratitude of sin.
    Such is the mystery of man's freedom, says God,
    And the mystery of my government towards him and towards his freedom.
    If I hold him up too much, he is no longer free
    And if I don't hold him up sufficiently, I am endangering his salvation.
    Two goods in a sense almost equally precious.
    For salvation is of infinite price.
    But what kind of salvation would a salvation be that was not free?
    What would you call it?
    We want that salvation to be acquired by himself,
    Himself, man. To be procured by himself.
    To come, in a sense, from himself. Such is the secret,
    Such is the mystery of man's freedom.
    Such is the price we set on man's freedom.
    Because I myself am free, says God, and I have created man in my own image and likeness.
    Such is the mystery, such the secret, such the price
    Of all freedom.
    That freedom of that creature is the most beautiful reflection in this world
    Of the Creator's freedom. That is why we are so attached to it,
    And set a proper price on it.
    A salvation that was not free, that was not, that did not come from a free man could in no wise be attractive to us. What would it amount to?
    What would it mean?
    What interest would such a salvation have to offer?
    A beatitude of slaves, a salvation of slaves, a slavish beatitude, how do you expect me to be interested in that kind of thing? Does one care to be loved by slaves?
    If it were only a matter of proving my might, my might has no need of those slaves, my might is well enough known, it is sufficiently known that I am the Almighty.
    My might is manifest enough in all matter and in all events.
    My might is manifest enough in the sands of the sea and in the stars of heaven.
    It is not questioned, it is known, it is manifest enough in inanimate creation.
    It is manifest enough in the government,
    In the very event that is man.
    But in my creation which is endued with life, says God, I wanted something better, I wanted something more.
    Infinitely better. Infinitely more. For I wanted that freedom.
    I created that very freedom. There are several degrees to my throne.
    When you once have known what it is to be loved freely, submission no longer has any taste.
    All the prostrations in the world
    Are not worth the beautiful upright attitude of a free man as he kneels. All the submission, all the dejection in the world
    Are not equal in value to the soaring up point,
    The beautiful straight soaring up of one single invocation
    From a love that is free.

  4. #24
    Superwoman Red Herring's Avatar
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    ^ reminds me of the parable of the Grand Inquisitor from the Brothers Karamazov - a beautiful thought, I admit.

    The Project Gutenberg E-text of The Grand Inquisitor, by Feodor Dostoevsky
    The good life is one inspired by love and guided by knowledge. Neither love without knowledge, nor knowledge without love can produce a good life. - Bertrand Russell
    A herring's blog
    Johari / Nohari

  5. #25
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    God owns everything.
    He cannot steal.
    Assumptions Assumptions,
    maybe it's on a lease

    So it'd be like killing one's children then ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy
    Such is the mystery of man's freedom, says God,
    I must have missed the exclusive interview
    AGAIN

    You know what they say about people talking to invisible friends and making assumptions out of nowhere in medical circles.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    You forgot the part about him freeing the slaves....what an awful awful man!
    And another certified fact for religions and solidely backed by evidence this one!
    Darn.

    This thread has been making a huge assumption from the start, that there is such a thing as god. You don't discuss the 'snow on the porchyard' if there's no evidence of any snow there.
    Reason is what distinguish us from animals I hear.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  6. #26
    Oberon
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    Everyone dies; is it not within the authority of the Lord to determine when?

  7. #27
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    You forgot the part about him freeing the slaves....what an awful awful man!
    Aw, he just threw that in for kicks halfway through.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #28
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    You forgot the part about him freeing the slaves....what an awful awful man!
    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    And another certified fact for religions and solidely backed by evidence this one!
    Darn.
    I'm fairly certain that Lincoln can be credited with freeing the slaves. Or do we need a scientist's official seal of approval to verify this fact. :rolli:
    My wife and I made a game to teach kids about nutrition. Please try our game and vote for us to win. (Voting period: July 14 - August 14)
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  9. #29
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InsatiableCuriosity View Post
    I cannot believe in a vengeful, critical, jealous or mean G*d who with one hand gives us the freedom to choose between good and evil, then on the other smites us for the wrong choice??! If we were parents, these days we would call that inconsistent parenting and likely to do some sort of psychological damage to our children.

    We attribute, even in the Bible, Koran, Torah, these attributes to G*d because it makes Godhead seem more accessible to us and more like we would expect a Godhead to be. This isn't the G*d of freedom of choice between good and evil, love, forgiveness, peace and kindness???

    We are reaping what we sow and doing these things to each other then blaming the core of universal consciousness, for our use of religious tenets to condone the evils we perpetrate on each other and for the choices we make!

    Globally we are reaping the rewards of our own actions, weatherwise, climatic change, famine and pestilence, not G*d's anger for goodness sake.
    I'm sorry, but you're going to have to leave this thread at once.
    You make far too much sense.

  10. #30
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by InsatiableCuriosity View Post
    I cannot believe in a vengeful, critical, jealous or mean G*d who with one hand gives us the freedom to choose between good and evil, then on the other smites us for the wrong choice??!
    This is the prevailing perspective, but it is based on a fundamental misunderstanding... the choice has never been between good and evil.

    The choice is between life and death.

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