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  1. #1

    Default The idea of Art and Artistry?

    The Wiki on "Art" :-

    Art - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    I'm interested in the idea of art and artistry, there are a number of my favourite philosophers or psychologists who refer to their disciplines, practice and studies as an art form or artistry rather than a science, so far as I can tell this is to do with 1) Acknowledgement of limits or subjectivity, 2) Ascribing an asthetic or appreciative, even romantic dimension contra science.

    It makes me think what is art? What does it mean to be an artist is the broadest possible sense? The only person who I think has dealt with this idea in any depth is Oscar Wilde, particularly in The Decay of Lying, Picture of Dorian Gray and peppered all through his essays like Soul of Man Under Socialism.

    Wilde suggested that there are both artists in the sense of creative individuals who produce objects of appreciation or enjoyment but there are also artists in a broader sense, such as "artists of life", which from what I can tell are people whose lives are either parables, cautionary tales or achieve notoriety, unsure about this, in short because I detest celebrity culture, although I acknowledge he could be talking about biography instead.

    However one thing he does suggest, like some more recent or modern philosophers, that you can not say things are not art, you can say it is good or bad art but not that it is not art. So the idea is because objects are presented or connected with art or artistry they become art. So there is such a thing then as modern art in which displaying a urinal is art because it is the idea of a famous artist to do so.

    This is certainly a great talking point, it can prompt some great conversations but I think that honestly when considered in contrast to some of finest paintings I've seen in museams or even great photography a hell of a lot of it is conceit, charlatanism and the emperors new clothes.

    You wind up with the idea that any old shit an artist produces is art. Sometimes literally:- Artist's shit - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    What's your view?

  2. #2
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    So there is such a thing then as modern art in which displaying a urinal is art because it is the idea of a famous artist to do so.
    Well, it could be seen as a deconstructionist statement on art and a critique on the state of art itself, which is what you're describing as well.

    But also, it was exploration of art with a shift away from art as per the artist's intention and pushing art as more a matter of the viewer's interpretation of the work in question.

    In other words, where does art occur?
    In the will of the artist, or in the mind of the audience?
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    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    I think you can raise anything to an art form. The more intellectual it gets and the farther away from the beautiful it gets, the more I don't like it, personally, but different lids for different pots, etc.

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    In other words, where does art occur?
    In the will of the artist, or in the mind of the audience?
    Yeah, I like that, I think that is food for thought

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    "What is 'art'?" is a very different question from "What is good 'art'?"

    Almost anything can be called art. I find the discussion to be more interesting if you try to find an objective way to classify "good art".
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    The whole search for arts limits is getting quite boring, really... There was this one guy who killed his cat and masturbated with the corpse and filmed it and presented it as art. It's just done so many times now, trying to be the one to push the limit furthest, that I don't know if I really consider it to have any value anymore. I do think it is art, though...

    I like people who make their art, and not just stamp their name on something un-artsy.

  7. #7
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    The Death of Literacy and Telephone Art

    I sculpter may shape a lump of marble or they they may listen to the marble and chip away the superfluous.

    The literate shape the marble, while those from a spoken or electronic culture listen.

    We see now that the literate culture is reaching its apogee.

    And it is the apogee of absurdity.

    The absurd claim is made that anything is art.

    And if anything is art, then nothing is art.

    And so we see the total exhaustion of the literate imagination.

    And ironically the electronic imagination is invisible to the literate.

    "After all", say the literate, "what is telephone art?. I can't see any telephone art at all - it doesn't exist". When of course all we need to do is listen.

    For the literate have had all their senses but sight castrated, and so what they can't see, doesn't exist. And not being able to see electronic art, they say nothing is art. The literate artist has been castrated and crucified by print.

    But all we need to do is to listen, and to listen to one another.

    But learning to listen means passing through a little death - la petite mort - the death of literacy.

    And we have yet to notice that the telephone is set up as our new easel and brushes.

  8. #8
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nolla View Post
    The whole search for arts limits is getting quite boring, really... There was this one guy who killed his cat and masturbated with the corpse and filmed it and presented it as art. It's just done so many times now, trying to be the one to push the limit furthest, that I don't know if I really consider it to have any value anymore. I do think it is art, though...

    I like people who make their art, and not just stamp their name on something un-artsy.
    It's important to push limits, but that was never exactly the sole function of great artists, I think.. And they never really forced any limits themselves anyways. They latched on to limits already being pushed in culture itself. They rode the zeitgeist, so to speak, and translated these paradigm shifts into art. For example, Picasso and Braque's ideas in cubism kind of coincided with a lot new ideas in the air at the time (especially in scientific circles) with relativity, the 4th dimension, etc.; Arthur Conan Doyle, among a few others at the time, created a new type of hero, who relied on scientific methods; Constanine Stanislavsky was fascinated by the new realm of psychology, and charted out more in depth acting techniques, that didn't just center around diction or gestures; Warhol saw how our current culture could change any mundane commodity or personality into something extravagant, and decided to be funny about it and started saying Campbell's soup cans were art (and in a way we still haven't escaped the world he saw, what with reality TV and shit like that.. everyone has their 15 minutes of fame.. even the guidos on the Jersey Shore). OTOH the guy who jerks off on his cat isn't really pushing any limits.. These artists who do that aren't really going anywhere or pointing where culture is going or capturing some kind of unseen beauty or irony somewhere.. Artists are translators..They need a muse or a real cause..and when it's right, artist and audience are one.. but if an artist thinks they are a catalyst, with all the original ideas in and of themselves, then they usually churn out uninspired shit like that.

  9. #9

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    I dont agree with pushing the limits anymore, perhaps I'm getting old but I tend to agree with Nolla, not simply in the field of art either. I tend to feel that limits have been reached, objectively, trying to push them or breech them now looks very different like something else altogether. Like cat masturbator. Its pretty unpleasant.

  10. #10
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    Thumbs up Your Own Tone

    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    It's important to push limits...
    This is of course the Great Frontier, made famous by the American dream machine, Hollywood, in its oeuvre of Westerns.

    But they don't make Westerns any more simply because Westerns are the frontier of American literacy. And literacy is over. The Frontier is over.

    And interestingly the last gasp of the Frontier was the Moon shot. But all that happened on the Moon was that we turned round and saw the Whole Earth and soon we had the Whole Earth Catalogue, and most of all we discovered the Environment.

    The book is dead and the telephone is alive.

    And the internet is the computer connected to the telephone line.

    So right now, you are not reading a book, you are connected to me by the telephone line.

    But reactive literate that you are, you won't talk with me on the telephone, you are still addicted to the facsimile of electronic print. You can't bear to leave the printed page and cling to electronic text.

    You are yet to discover your own voice in your own tone.

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