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  1. #11
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    I'm a college student who works in retail- I'm very very bored with my life at the moment!
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  2. #12
    Per Ardua Metamorphosis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    I'm a college student who works in retail- I'm very very bored with my life at the moment!
    I've got you beat. I'm a college student who's unemployed.
    "You will always be fond of me. I represent to you all the sins you never had the courage to commit."

    Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions, and can never pretend to any other office
    than to serve and obey them. - David Hume

  3. #13
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphosis View Post
    I've got you beat. I'm a college student who's unemployed.
    That would actually be me, as well.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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    INTP. Type 1>6>5. sx/sp.
    Live and let live will just amount to might makes right

  4. #14
    Senior Member OctaviaCaesar's Avatar
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    If nothing were labelled as "wrong" or "bad" then there would be no such thing as guilt. There are many schools of thought on this, ranging from "guilt is a social regulating mechanism" and "guilt is inborn with a sense of morality proving the existence of god."

  5. #15
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OctaviaCaesar View Post
    If nothing were labelled as "wrong" or "bad" then there would be no such thing as guilt. There are many schools of thought on this, ranging from "guilt is a social regulating mechanism" and "guilt is inborn with a sense of morality proving the existence of god."

    I'm not sure where you are going with that.
    For the record, I absolutely believe there should be a definition of right and wrong, and such a thing as guilt and shame.
    I do personally believe many of the standards of guilt develop intuitively out of the human mind, though I think this proves nothing of God's existence.
    These are not separate factors. It is an inborn quality that evolutionarily developed because of it's affectivity as a social regulator.

    What I'm talking about is the fact that people confuse their own definitions of right and wrong.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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    INTP. Type 1>6>5. sx/sp.
    Live and let live will just amount to might makes right

  6. #16
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Don't do things you consider bad!
    That being said, don't consider something bad just because another circle does!
    I for one do not believe in absolute right or wrong. There are only rights and wrongs by convention... and morality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I'm not sure where you are going with that.
    For the record, I absolutely believe there should be a definition of right and wrong, and such a thing as guilt and shame.
    I do personally believe many of the standards of guilt develop intuitively out of the human mind, though I think this proves nothing of God's existence.
    These are not separate factors. It is an inborn quality that evolutionarily developed because of it's affectivity as a social regulator.

    What I'm talking about is the fact that people confuse their own definitions of right and wrong.
    I don't think people can fully define what right and wrong meant to them exactly... No more than the hand waving arguments of "this feels right/wrong to me" or "this is right/wrong by convention". It seems like there's always exception to the rules.

    Ethics are taught to us by our parents, teachers what not. They seem like very reasonable things to me. Yet how much of that line of thinking is due to logical deduction and how much due to sheer conditioning? My line of thinking might upset some people... but we could very well just be accepting them based on nothing more than social conditioning, and we fabricate reasons... however logically to support our beliefs.

    I seem to be wandering off on a tangent. But anyways, my point is that if our concept of right and wrong is nothing more than conventions that we were taught to believe in... then what makes something TRULY good or bad? We cannot ever look at the situation from a strictly objective point of view without bias. Even the words "good" and "bad" themselves are biased... if they're subjective... then there cannot be absolute rights and wrongs. And from the objective stand point, good and bad, being relatives, cannot be mutually exclusive. A relative bad can be relatively more right than a relative good etc etc...

    I'm giving myself a headache... why am I doing this? I'm not really into philosophy...

  7. #17
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    I for one do not believe in absolute right or wrong. There are only rights and wrongs by convention... and morality.


    I don't think people can fully define what right and wrong meant to them exactly... No more than the hand waving arguments of "this feels right/wrong to me" or "this is right/wrong by convention". It seems like there's always exception to the rules.

    Ethics are taught to us by our parents, teachers what not. They seem like very reasonable things to me. Yet how much of that line of thinking is due to logical deduction and how much due to sheer conditioning? My line of thinking might upset some people... but we could very well just be accepting them based on nothing more than social conditioning, and we fabricate reasons... however logically to support our beliefs.

    I seem to be wandering off on a tangent. But anyways, my point is that if our concept of right and wrong is nothing more than conventions that we were taught to believe in... then what makes something TRULY good or bad? We cannot ever look at the situation from a strictly objective point of view without bias. Even the words "good" and "bad" themselves are biased... if they're subjective... then there cannot be absolute rights and wrongs. And from the objective stand point, good and bad, being relatives, cannot be mutually exclusive. A relative bad can be relatively more right than a relative good etc etc...
    I'd just like to say that I don't believe all right and wrong is a social construct. I don't believe that's possible.
    There has to be an inherent basis for this concept.
    Guilt, shame, indignation and many of the other things related to right and wrong are genetic, biological, neurological things.
    Not only are those feelings inherent(excluding mutants like psychopaths) but it does seem to me that there is a general pattern of what is considered wrong. It would only make sense for a social species to develop such a function.

    That being said... Are you a Five or a Four, nightning?
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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    Live and let live will just amount to might makes right

  8. #18
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I'd just like to say that I don't believe all right and wrong is a social construct. I don't believe that's possible.
    There has to be an inherent basis for this concept.
    Guilt, shame, indignation and many of the other things related to right and wrong are genetic, biological, neurological things.
    Not only are those feelings inherent(excluding mutants like psychopaths) but it does seem to me that there is a general pattern of what is considered wrong. It would only make sense for a social species to develop such a function.
    Genetics... oh that's another can of worms. Yes I agree with you that guilt, shame and the like have biological relevance and are hardwired in our systems. Evolutionary speaking, we have them because they helped our specie survive. Some social psychologists/anthropologists whatever thinks there is such a thing as social evolution as well. And that evolution of our culture is very rapidly outpacing/ has already completely overtaken the genetic basis of natural selection.

    Obviously things like guilt and shame had and still continue to have their roles in our well being. However, there are numerous cases where guilt and shame are maladaptive. The rights and wrongs in our society has changed far too rapidly. I agree that things like incest and kin killing are usually morally wrong and have biological relevence... and cooperation, helping is typically seen as a virtue. But the bottom line is these things are right and wrong because of what they can promote not just because they're inherently good or bad. Helping behavior boost group/gene survival... If the group is to survive, then that notion has to be fostered. So keeping that type of thinking in the back of my mind... I can't see a case where something is good just because it inherently is... there's always a hidden motive behind it!

    That being said... Are you a Five or a Four, nightning?
    Ummmm I'm not sure what my ennaegram type might be... I think I'm a 4w5? But it changes too darn much. Maybe you can help me figure it out sometimes...

  9. #19
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    Genetics... oh that's another can of worms. Yes I agree with you that guilt, shame and the like have biological relevance and are hardwired in our systems. Evolutionary speaking, we have them because they helped our specie survive. Some social psychologists/anthropologists whatever thinks there is such a thing as social evolution as well. And that evolution of our culture is very rapidly outpacing/ has already completely overtaken the genetic basis of natural selection.

    Obviously things like guilt and shame had and still continue to have their roles in our well being. However, there are numerous cases where guilt and shame are maladaptive. The rights and wrongs in our society has changed far too rapidly. I agree that things like incest and kin killing are usually morally wrong and have biological relevence... and cooperation, helping is typically seen as a virtue. But the bottom line is these things are right and wrong because of what they can promote not just because they're inherently good or bad. Helping behavior boost group/gene survival... If the group is to survive, then that notion has to be fostered. So keeping that type of thinking in the back of my mind... I can't see a case where something is good just because it inherently is... there's always a hidden motive behind it!
    Well, of course. I don't know what to say. I just don't see how these are two different concepts. That is the most simplistic basis of right and wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    Ummmm I'm not sure what my ennaegram type might be... I think I'm a 4w5? But it changes too darn much. Maybe you can help me figure it out sometimes...
    That's what I do!
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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    Live and let live will just amount to might makes right

  10. #20
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Well, of course. I don't know what to say. I just don't see how these are two different concepts. That is the most simplistic basis of right and wrong.
    What two different concepts were you referring to?

    But should good not be just that? "good"? It's like altruism is good. Why do we say that? Altruism is help of others regardless of self. Yet there's always a selfish basis for altruism, unconscious or not. Is how do you define good then? I'm going around in a circle. *grumbles*

    What is the objective sense of being good? I don't think it exists. Good is always relative... good from this perspective, not always so for all perspectives. So good and bad is only exclusive under one particular POV. I'm not happy with the statement because it's not true under all cases.

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