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  1. #1
    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    Default The value of worship

    For any religion, what is the value of turning belief from passive to active: Engaging in worship, or rituals, etc?

    Can a religion really be observed without worship or rituals or even prayers, no active participation (whether alone or social), but simply through passive belief?
    You can't spell "justice" without ISTJ.

  2. #2
    likes this gromit's Avatar
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    Okay, so, worship, homage to a greater being (accompanied with an attitude of reverence) in a formal or informal ceremony...

    A sense of awe and wonder, which I associate with worship and hiking and the ocean, is somehow related to personal development... I think it goes back to the idea that there is something bigger than you, whether it is humanity, the universe, 'nature', or God, or whatever you may call it. It gives you a sense of connectedness and healthy humility. When you are worshiping, you're acknowledging the existence of that larger context.

    Another important aspect of worship in organized religion is that it is often communal, so it gives you a sense of being more physically connected with the group.

    The act of doing helps to make things REAL, to reinforce, to make less theoretical.

    Simply observing the religion you would miss out on the above. However, there would still be a lot you could learn though, thinking about the ideas, integrating them into your own belief system etc. but I really do feel strongly that the act of DOING can change you somehow.
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    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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  4. #4
    Artisan Conquerer Halla74's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gromit View Post
    Okay, so, worship, homage to a greater being (accompanied with an attitude of reverence) in a formal or informal ceremony...
    Good definition, I likes it!

    Quote Originally Posted by gromit View Post
    A sense of awe and wonder, which I associate with worship and hiking and the ocean, is somehow related to personal development...
    I too have a similar sense of awe and wonder for nature. To me, nature is a central component of man's connectivity with God. So many people do not seem to understand that MAN is a tiny part of the MASSIVE LIVING ECOSYSTEM of the planet EARTH. All life is dependent on the totality of the ecosystem of the planet on which it lives. God created the heavens and the Earth, and man might be his favorite life form of all he created, but it seems that alot of people forget their ties to "Mother Nature", whom God appointed as the caretaker of the planet man lives on. To foresake nature is to deny the totality of the creation of all life. A living ecosystem cannot exclusively be skyscrapers, and subways, and highways, and airports, these things are very useful creations of man, but are not alive at all, and do not serve to bring us closer to our maker...

    Quote Originally Posted by gromit View Post
    I think it goes back to the idea that there is something bigger than you, whether it is humanity, the universe, 'nature', or God, or whatever you may call it. It gives you a sense of connectedness and healthy humility. When you are worshiping, you're acknowledging the existence of that larger context.
    I really like how you worded the above and conceptualized it. Beautiful!

    Quote Originally Posted by gromit View Post
    Another important aspect of worship in organized religion is that it is often communal, so it gives you a sense of being more physically connected with the group.
    Apparently this is true for many. It never has been for me. I have never been one to feel closer to anyone just because they were next to me in church and we were listening to the same service and singing the same songs at the same time.

    The experiences that bring me closer to members of a church or any other organziation are activities such as community action projects. I volunteered my time to renovate an abandoned house in the middle of town a few years ago. I told the guys I have very little experience doing construction work of any kind, but I'm a big strong S.O.B. and I'll move anything around where its needed, pick up the trash generated by the various projects going on at the same time, and try to learn whatever I could to be useful. They were like "Cool! We have a work horse!"

    Each day I worked on that project I was exhausted, but I knew all of our efforts would ultimately lead to turning an abandoned home in the middle of town into a nice house that a family would be able to buy under special financing/low interest rate terms ala the non-profit's deal with the city in using volunteer time to renovate the abandoned property. That felt really good to me, and made me feel alot closer to God than sitting in a church singing songs that I've never liked, and throwing a few bucks in the basket when it makes its way down my aisle of pews...

    I'm an ESTP though, and we are notorious for being ranked the lowest of all MBTI types with regard to "spiritual awareness" or whatever it is referred to as. I'm a man of action, yet I believe in God, and am more comfortable connecting with him by trying to do his work here on Earth than participate in ritualistic, organized religious services. But I'm not at all syaing that my way is better than anyone elses, it's just what works for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by gromit View Post
    The act of doing helps to make things REAL, to reinforce, to make less theoretical.
    BINGO!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by gromit View Post
    Simply observing the religion you would miss out on the above. However, there would still be a lot you could learn though, thinking about the ideas, integrating them into your own belief system etc. but I really do feel strongly that the act of DOING can change you somehow.
    Totally. We must all find a way of "doing" that makes sense to us personally. That is the ticket, that is the key. If you believe in God (or higher power of any kind), find a way to connect in a manner that is complimentary to your understanding, and you will no doubt experience a synergistic effect that multiplies the strength of your convictions far beyond what either form can do on their own.
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    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    I want to go to gromit and Halla's church.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
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    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cimarron View Post
    For any religion, what is the value of turning belief from passive to active: Engaging in worship, or rituals, etc?
    Sensors like it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
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    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cimarron View Post
    For any religion, what is the value of turning belief from passive to active: Engaging in worship, or rituals, etc?

    Can a religion really be observed without worship or rituals or even prayers, no active participation (whether alone or social), but simply through passive belief?
    Worship is one of the most powerful things we can do.

    Homo sapiens has been worshipping for 200,000 years.

    For 200,000 years we have been creating ourselves through worship.

    Other animals are guided by instinct and have no need to create themselves. We are the only animal that has the possibility of creating ourselves. And we do - through worship.

    Worship is extraordinary. We open the depths of ourselves to the Truth with a capital T. And we open ourselves to the Presence with a capital P.

    And the Presence and the Truth become our present truth.

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    Artisan Conquerer Halla74's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Worship is one of the most powerful things we can do.

    Homo sapiens has been worshipping for 200,000 years.

    For 200,000 years we have been creating ourselves through worship.

    Other animals are guided by instinct and have no need to create themselves. We are the only animal that has the possibility of creating ourselves. And we do - through worship.

    Worship is extraordinary. We open the depths of ourselves to the Truth with a capital T. And we open ourselves to the Presence with a capital P.

    And the Presence and the Truth become our present truth.
    A most excellent post, Victor!
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  9. #9
    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gromit View Post
    Simply observing the religion you would miss out on the above. However, there would still be a lot you could learn though, thinking about the ideas, integrating them into your own belief system etc.
    -- but could you even call that [religion], without the active aspects of belief?

    Quote Originally Posted by gromit View Post
    The act of doing helps to make things REAL, to reinforce, to make less theoretical.
    So let's discuss: What is the value in that? Why not leave a "religion" as a group of theories in one's mind?
    Last edited by Cimarron; 08-07-2010 at 01:23 PM. Reason: a more popular point
    You can't spell "justice" without ISTJ.

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    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    I think most of the ritual and worship are about preserving and transmiting knowledge between acolytes and novices or generations, its only a jumping off point for actual spiritual experience and as a result, for those unattuned to or uninclined to spiritual experience or even those OCD about the rituals themselves are not going to experience anything.

    The vast majority of sermons, preaching and teaching I've encountered are almost entirely normative, sometimes there's a little history and show biz but more often than not, unfortunately, there's a lot of the personality and personal quirks, more often hang ups and issues, being projected. The whole kiss up and piss down or controller drives get channelled by religious as easily as other fields.

    The best spiritual practices I've discovered have been in small books which not all churches circulate and are more historical reference now, like The Interior Castle, The Imitation of Christ, Dark Night of The Soul, Practicing The Prescence of God and The Devout Life.

    The last two are probably the best, the others are good in terms of considering how to pray but I think relate more to introversion, I'd say I also find the different rules adopted by monastaries, such as the rule of benedict, the rule of Francis, the rule of Augustine, some of which anyone can practice.

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