User Tag List

First 2345 Last

Results 31 to 40 of 46

  1. #31
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    9,130

    Default

    I don't worship.

  2. #32
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    18,536

    Smile Homeless Without Worship

    We worship that which our society finds most valuable. If our society finds the dollar most valuable, we worship the dollar. On the other hand, if our society finds social justice most valuable, we worship social justice.

    We orientate ourselves within our respective societies so the direction we take and the values we hold are determined by our society.

    If our society misdirects us to worship individualism, then unsurprisingly our society becomes invisible to us. And the history of our society becomes invisible and the power relations within our society become invisible too.

    Naturally this suits those who benefit from the present power relations, and have a vested interest in keeping them and keeping them invisible.

    Of course this violates the first Commandment where we are enjoined to worship the Lord, our God, and are forbidden to worship any false idols.

    But let's face reality - it is better to worship false idols than not to worship at all. I only have to turn on the TV to, "Australian Idol", to see who to worship today.

    But our first God was the God of the hearth. And without the God of the hearth, we are homeless.

    And without a home we are cast aside in the screaming wilderness. No wonder we worship.

    No wonder we worship anything rather than nothing.

    We tremble helplessly before our God in worship.

  3. #33
    Senior Member swordpath's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    MBTI
    ISTx
    Posts
    10,552

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I dont know what you're not capable of and I dont know why you should be capable of it.
    All I'm saying is that I'm not capable of believing simply because I want to, because I do want to. I'd love to be secure in the idea that there's a force above us all, that is looking out for our welfare and that there's a happy place reserved for me, eternally, after this life on earth. I could scrounge around to find teachings or place myself in the company of wise men who do believe, and that might reinforce the notion of this God, but at my core a legitimate faith would be lacking because I haven't experienced him personally.

    It would take some personal act on God's part to convince me. He'd have to reveal himself in a way that computes with me. If he's all-powerful and all loving, why would he withhold? Beats me. People that I talk to who are believers want to tell me I'm doing something wrong. That all the clear signs and revelations are RIGHT THERE, but that I'm not trying or open to accepting it. Yeah, whatever.

    All that to say, it's God's move. "The ball is in his court", so to speak. I'm not resistant, just extremely skeptical. I don't think that's a flaw on my part.

    Just while I'm talking to you I'd like to say that these discussions are difficult sometimes because people come to them with all their previous experiences, its not always the case that there's a "shared language" or "common concepts" for conducting the discussion.

    I'm not trying to be clever or out wit you or anything asking those questions, just not sure what you mean, although I dont agree with you're earlier representation of Christianity, it could well be your own personal lived experience.
    It is frustrating talking this subject with others for the reasons you have stated. I agree. I usually try to avoid it. I can't say exactly how I arrived at this mentality that I've got, but I'm here and it's pretty firmly held. What's a boy to do? I'm as lost as the next guy.

  4. #34
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    468 sx/sp
    Socionics
    EII None
    Posts
    4,383

    Default

    This reminds me of Mark 9. "Lord, I believe! Help thou mine unbelief!" That's a harder road and one that I've never experienced -- for me it was the opposite, that I believed, and then I realized it made no sense, and trying to be a slave to making sense, stumbled back and forth with it, and still do. But basically, you can walk the walk even if you don't believe. You can pray even if you think no one is listening, and go to church and ask questions even if you think the answers don't make any sense. It's very hard for me to think that you won't have a breakthrough, because that is one very basic promise we're given, Luke 11:9-10
    Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks, it will be opened.

  5. #35
    Senior Member human101's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    MBTI
    NiTe
    Enneagram
    1w9 sx
    Socionics
    INTp Ni
    Posts
    496

    Default

    lol

  6. #36
    Senior Member swordpath's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    MBTI
    ISTx
    Posts
    10,552

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by human101 View Post
    lol
    What?

  7. #37
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    468 sx/sp
    Socionics
    EII None
    Posts
    4,383

    Default

    As to the original question, "For any religion, what is the value of turning belief from passive to active: Engaging in worship, or rituals, etc"

    I like Teresa of Avila:
    "God has no body now on earth but yours. No hands but yours. No feet but yours.
    Yours are the eyes through which the compassion of Christ must look out on the world. Yours are the feet with which He is to go about doing good. Yours are the hands with which He is to bless his people."
    --St. Teresa of Avila (1515-1582)

  8. #38
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Posts
    6,028

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Beat View Post
    All I'm saying is that I'm not capable of believing simply because I want to, because I do want to. I'd love to be secure in the idea that there's a force above us all, that is looking out for our welfare and that there's a happy place reserved for me, eternally, after this life on earth. I could scrounge around to find teachings or place myself in the company of wise men who do believe, and that might reinforce the notion of this God, but at my core a legitimate faith would be lacking because I haven't experienced him personally.

    It would take some personal act on God's part to convince me. He'd have to reveal himself in a way that computes with me. If he's all-powerful and all loving, why would he withhold? Beats me. People that I talk to who are believers want to tell me I'm doing something wrong. That all the clear signs and revelations are RIGHT THERE, but that I'm not trying or open to accepting it. Yeah, whatever.

    All that to say, it's God's move. "The ball is in his court", so to speak. I'm not resistant, just extremely skeptical. I don't think that's a flaw on my part.


    It is frustrating talking this subject with others for the reasons you have stated. I agree. I usually try to avoid it. I can't say exactly how I arrived at this mentality that I've got, but I'm here and it's pretty firmly held. What's a boy to do? I'm as lost as the next guy.
    My personal belief is that if you keep yourself open, you will find that reassurance at the right time. I don't think God withholds, but I also think some circumstances and timeframes are more "right" than others. The perfect situation presents itself to make the greatest impact. I also think it never hurts to ask through prayer for the very thing you want. The "seeking" part of the equation. Sometimes I think we have to ask for it. I don't think you're doing anything wrong.
    Something Witty

  9. #39
    likes this gromit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    6,652

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Halla74 View Post
    The experiences that bring me closer to members of a church or any other organziation are activities such as community action projects. I volunteered my time to renovate an abandoned house in the middle of town a few years ago. I told the guys I have very little experience doing construction work of any kind, but I'm a big strong S.O.B. and I'll move anything around where its needed, pick up the trash generated by the various projects going on at the same time, and try to learn whatever I could to be useful. They were like "Cool! We have a work horse!"

    Each day I worked on that project I was exhausted, but I knew all of our efforts would ultimately lead to turning an abandoned home in the middle of town into a nice house that a family would be able to buy under special financing/low interest rate terms ala the non-profit's deal with the city in using volunteer time to renovate the abandoned property. That felt really good to me, and made me feel alot closer to God than sitting in a church singing songs that I've never liked, and throwing a few bucks in the basket when it makes its way down my aisle of pews...
    Hm... I totally think that counts, actually. 'Counts'.

    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I want to go to gromit and Halla's church.
    Me too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cimarron View Post
    -- but could you even call that [religion], without the active aspects of belief?

    So let's discuss: What is the value in that? Why not leave a "religion" as a group of theories in one's mind?
    I'm not sure I understand what you're asking... I think you could leave something as theories in your mind but I don't know that a set of theories would be a religion. Perhaps a philosophy. But unless you implement those theories somehow, use them to drive your decisions and actions, then what is the point, to make yourself feel good or something? (Not you specifically, generic 'you')

    I've been thinking about this a little more, particularly as I've been sort of drifting in terms of formal religion lately. Here is a quote from this essay called Department of the Interior by Linda Hogan.

    The purpose of ceremony is to restore the individual to their place within all the rest...The real ceremony begins where the formal one ends, when we take up a new way, our minds and hearts filled with the vision of earth that holds us within it, in compassionate relationship to and with our world. We speak. We sing. We swallow water and breathe smoke. By the end of the ceremony, it is as if skin contains land and birds. The places within us have become filled...We who easily grow apart from the world are returned to the great store of life all around us and there is the deepest sense of being at home here in this intimate kinship.
    That passage is describing a native American sweat lodge ceremony (I believe of the Lakota tradition). I had the chance to participate in one a few months ago, a friend invited me to attend. It's sort of like a sauna that's made by pouring water over really hot rocks. It's like nothing I've ever experienced. The person in charge lead us through different meditations, and chants and songs, and you really do feel like you are dissolving into this interconnectedness, a greater awareness (while you're doing it), and then afterward, you feel relaxed but somehow also alert, renewed, cleansed, able to refocus your attention. So I have felt, in my own way, what the author describes with that particular ceremony, in a very tangible, but spiritual/psychological way. So beautiful.

    I have also felt similarly with other ceremonies from other traditions, too, though never as tangibly. I like the beginning of the second sentence 'The real ceremony begins where the formal one ends, when we take up a new way...' The ceremony itself tends to be more physical, but at the same time all of the elements are deeply symbolic. You bring that symbolism from abstraction to reality by changing the your attitude, your approach to things, by taking up the new way.
    Your kisses, sweeter than honey. But guess what, so is my money.

  10. #40
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    MBTI
    ESTJ
    Enneagram
    9 so/sx
    Posts
    21,653

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    Millions have escaped the net! Get with the times.
    If they had anything to recommend them I would, millions you say? I had no idea so many had become shut off.

Similar Threads

  1. [INTP] INTP's: the value of turning Ti into Te?
    By INTPness in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: 01-09-2010, 07:44 PM
  2. The value of cynicism
    By Quinlan in forum General Psychology
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 11-12-2009, 04:21 PM
  3. Mom and I argue about the value of Football
    By Athenian200 in forum The Fluff Zone
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 11-08-2009, 01:45 PM
  4. The value of random on-line personality tests
    By Ilah in forum General Psychology
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 09-26-2008, 08:33 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO