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Thread: Is God Evil?

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    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    To be honest I reckon the fact we all live in open defiance most of the time of the laws that he created to make life good is evidence enough God's not evil, I mean if Satan was in charge the human race would be dust, literally, a long time ago, falling short in his estimations in comparison with the angelic host he would have nixed the whole deal.

    God's different and I dont believe that man, angels, even Jesus, could full comprehend or know the mind or motives of God at all, its like a spider or butterfly comprehending human thinking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barmaley View Post
    I was challenged to a formal debate by a conservative. The topic is:

    Is the God as described in the Bible moral according to any reasonable standards of morality?
    You will have an easy debate... I wouldn't know how to define morality so that christian god (as described in the bible) could be described as moral.

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    Our problem is one of definition, of course. What's good, and what's evil? It's easy to say "God is not evil" when evil is defined as "that which goes against God." So... how do we get around that problem?

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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Our problem is one of definition, of course. What's good, and what's evil? It's easy to say "God is not evil" when evil is defined as "that which goes against God." So... how do we get around that problem?
    This is what I mean by analyzing God from a human perspective. It doesn't work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Our problem is one of definition, of course. What's good, and what's evil? It's easy to say "God is not evil" when evil is defined as "that which goes against God." So... how do we get around that problem?
    Well, it wouldn't be a debate if they defined it like that. I don't see that the debate can have any other outcomes than "God is not moral" or "We don't know what moral means" Obviously the guy on god's side will try to avoid any definition of morals that would make god look bad. But even if he succeeds, he doesn't win. There is no way you can prove that biblical god is essentially good in a way that could be understood good from our point of view. It would be easy to prove he is mad, though...

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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Our problem is one of definition, of course. What's good, and what's evil? It's easy to say "God is not evil" when evil is defined as "that which goes against God." So... how do we get around that problem?
    What's the problem? That we can freely choose to act in a manner that does not measure up to the goodness of God? Scripture is clear on that. Sin entered the world by our own choosing. Think of the presuppositions you have to infer and their logical outworking when considering the God of the whole Bible. God created the Universe for man to live in a righteous covenant relationship with Himself, and then out of man's abuse of his own free will chose to reject God by his own disobedience, and found himself in an unrighteous relationship with God. If God does not exist and the universe happened from nothing and out of nothing, then there's no moral argument to be made, as all morality (the difference between good and evil) is relative, and thus, no real justice and no need for mercy or forgiveness.....basically a hideous world. I think the better argument would be, why is there GOOD in this world, as we can call it such? Of course I would answer, God, and I've often said as a retort, "If God is bad, why does bacon taste so good?"

    In order to have the highest good, man has to be able to choose it over the lowest evil. Without the option, God is evil, because we'd all be robots.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nolla View Post
    Well, it wouldn't be a debate if they defined it like that. I don't see that the debate can have any other outcomes than "God is not moral" or "We don't know what moral means" Obviously the guy on god's side will try to avoid any definition of morals that would make god look bad. But even if he succeeds, he doesn't win. There is no way you can prove that biblical god is essentially good in a way that could be understood good from our point of view. It would be easy to prove he is mad, though...
    Nah, only to an unbeliever. You know God is good when you've experienced the love of God through the atonement of Christ. It's also more logical when you have a broader grasp of the faith of Christianity as a whole.
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    Quote Originally Posted by paisley1 View Post
    What's the problem? That we can freely choose to act in a manner that does not measure up to the goodness of God? Scripture is clear on that.
    Where does scripture get its validity?

    Sin entered the world by our own choosing.
    So, do we have creative ability separate from God's, or did God create sin... leaving him ultimately responsible for it?

    Think of the presuppositions you have to infer and their logical outworking when considering the God of the whole Bible.
    Yes, this is the problem.

    God created the Universe for man to live in a righteous covenant relationship with Himself, and then out of man's abuse of his own free will chose to reject God by his own disobedience, and found himself in an unrighteous relationship with God.
    Why give the choice? Why do this when one knows the result? If not creating the evil, this is at least tacitly endorsing it.

    If God does not exist and the universe happened from nothing and out of nothing, then there's no moral argument to be made, as all morality (the difference between good and evil) is relative, and thus, no real justice and no need for mercy or forgiveness.....basically a hideous world.
    Why make this assumption? Couldn't you make a utilitarian argument, that morality exists... because morality works?

    I think the better argument would be, why is there GOOD in this world, as we can call it such? Of course I would answer, God, and I've often said as a retort, "If God is bad, why does bacon taste so good?"
    Then why would God forbid his chosen people to eat pork? That's a real dick move.

    In order to have the highest good, man has to be able to choose it over the lowest evil. Without the option, God is evil, because we'd all be robots.
    What's wrong with being a robot? If a robot had consciousness, wouldn't that be meaningful to it?

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    Scripture gets it's validity from itself, and understood through the Spirit when someone repents and believes in Christ.

    We have choice, to choose good as opposed to choosing what is evil. Sin is an archery term, meaning, to miss the mark, the mark being God's standard, where it doesn't really matter if you miss by a millimeter or turn around and shoot in the opposite direction, it's still sin. We're all sinful, where no one does good, according to scripture. It's our will that is at odd's with God, and our choice to be so.

    Explain how God allowing his creation the option to live in a righteous covenant relationship with Himself and telling us not to choose an unrighteous relationship, is God's fault? Given the presupposition that God created us, we can't say that's unjust, but, seems extremely just. Like, "If you stay with me, you'll live, if you choose pride and sin, you'll die." is not God making the choice, it's man, and if we didn't have choice to freely choose the highest good, he wouldn't have created us, because that is intricately interconnected to who God is and who we are.

    Utilitarian morality is an oxymoron, that is, Utilitarian good and evil, because it's relative to either the herd or individual, which will always be immoral to the other herd or other individual. If you can find "Sum Happiness" it'll be in a reasonable ultimate ground, that is, God, as you can not derive an "ought to" statement from an "is". Whatever works, is not morality, as can clearly be seen, at least to me, by those who've practiced Eugenics and thought it was right, and those who've administered mass genocides and thought it was right. Utilitarian as that is for the herd, it's clearly evil.
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  10. #50
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paisley1 View Post
    Scripture gets it's validity from itself, and understood through the Spirit when someone repents and believes in Christ.
    Prove it.

    We have choice, to choose good as opposed to choosing what is evil. Sin is an archery term, meaning, to miss the mark, the mark being God's standard, where it doesn't really matter if you miss by a millimeter or turn around and shoot in the opposite direction, it's still sin. We're all sinful, where no one does good, according to scripture. It's our will that is at odd's with God, and our choice to be so.
    So why even give us the option?

    Explain how God allowing his creation the option to live in a righteous covenant relationship with Himself and telling us not to choose an unrighteous relationship, is God's fault?
    He set the terms. He's the one with the power in the arrangement. Why is it wrong for a human to say "I don't want to" in that circumstance?

    Given the presupposition that God created us, we can't say that's unjust, but, seems extremely just. Like, "If you stay with me, you'll live, if you choose pride and sin, you'll die." is not God making the choice, it's man, and if we didn't have choice to freely choose the highest good, he wouldn't have created us, because that is intricately interconnected to who God is and who we are.
    Once again, prove it.

    Utilitarian morality is an oxymoron, that is, Utilitarian good and evil, because it's relative to either the herd or individual, which will always be immoral to the other herd or other individual. If you can find "Sum Happiness" it'll be in a reasonable ultimate ground, that is, God, as you can not derive an "ought to" statement from an "is". Whatever works, is not morality, as can clearly be seen, at least to me, by those who've practiced Eugenics and thought it was right, and those who've administered mass genocides and thought it was right. Utilitarian as that is for the herd, it's clearly evil.
    That's more a question of in-group/out-group definition than absolute morality, isn't it?

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