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  1. #11
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    What has me thinking that permanent death could be possible is the fact that we're polluting the planet to such an extent that we could actually kill it and not be able to live here anymore, and this is the only place that supports our life forms, so if we kill our planet and we die as a result, you gonna tell me the entire earth transmigrates or reincarnates or goes to heaven or hell? Where I have the problem is in saying any of these options apply to humans but to nothing else.

  2. #12
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pixelholic View Post
    well all atoms have an electrical charge so I don't know why humans and animals having it would prove a soul. When a body dies the atoms don't cease to exist.

    I guess my point is, until there is definitive proof of a soul then I'm not going to concern myself with it.

    Though technically reincarnation does exist... just not a continuation of consciousness.

    And there's no evidence for dualism either.

    The intention website just looks like a call for prayer without calling it prayer. They don't have a list of any of their credentials and there's no sign of peer review at all. It seems like they'd have a hard time controlling for placebo effect and other things, the experiment itself seems to be flawed and unfalsifiable.
    Yeah, you just summed up athiesm in that last line but whatever.

  3. #13
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    What has me thinking that permanent death could be possible is the fact that we're polluting the planet to such an extent that we could actually kill it and not be able to live here anymore, and this is the only place that supports our life forms, so if we kill our planet and we die as a result, you gonna tell me the entire earth transmigrates or reincarnates or goes to heaven or hell? Where I have the problem is in saying any of these options apply to humans but to nothing else.
    You know that's interesting, I suppose that complete extinction as a consequence of despoiling the world could be akin to the end of times described in most world religions.

  4. #14
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feops View Post
    I think the notion of a soul is a result of a very strong human desire to survive, so to conceptualize ourselves as fundamentally immortal is comforting. I don't like the idea of karma stretching across multiple lifetimes, as if current suffering can be justified somehow in ways we cannot reconcile.

    I do think we are immortal in the sense that matter and energy are perpetually recycled. Heck, the "me" of a decade ago might be more or less gone by now, regenerated over the years and strung together with an illusion of memory. I'm not sure if it's comforting or disturbing that the past me might be dead in a sense.
    But surely that is the case? What you're saying about your past self, its true even if you consider a single life time, the you that exists is not, for instance, you aged ten or you aged five, those versions of your self are effectively deceased but for pictures or memories.

  5. #15
    Senior Member Pixelholic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Yeah, you just summed up athiesm in that last line but whatever.
    Sure if I made an unfalsifiable claim such as "there is no god" or "there is no consciousness beyond death" but I didn't.

    However, there's no evidence either. There is more evidence that consciousness is a product of a physical brain. So it makes more sense to go with the idea that has more evidence.

    It is fun to speculate on consciousness though, especially collective/group consciousness and the possibility of consciousness beyond brain death. And the different competing hypotheses are interesting too.
    “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.” -Nietzsche

  6. #16
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pixelholic View Post
    Sure if I made an unfalsifiable claim such as "there is no god" or "there is no consciousness beyond death" but I didn't.

    However, there's no evidence either. There is more evidence that consciousness is a product of a physical brain. So it makes more sense to go with the idea that has more evidence.

    It is fun to speculate on consciousness though, especially collective/group consciousness and the possibility of consciousness beyond brain death. And the different competing hypotheses are interesting too.
    OK well while you're going with the one which has more evidence you're engaging in accumulative correlations and cognitive confirmation bias.

  7. #17
    Senior Member Pixelholic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    OK well while you're going with the one which has more evidence you're engaging in accumulative correlations and cognitive confirmation bias.
    Yeah, I'm alright with that. If it ever gets to a point where it becomes problematic then I'll reassess things.
    “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.” -Nietzsche

  8. #18
    Senior Member Scott N Denver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Reincarnation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    The Three Stigmata of Palmer Eldritch - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Transmigration of the soul or reincarnation, anyone interested or believe in this?
    Yes

    I've got to say that its mainly a literary interest for me, it does in some ways in the buddhist belief reflect a state of being which I would describe as purgatory, ie being unable to break a cycle of death and rebirth and experience the after life, however the buddhists suggest that there is no personal survival in death, so that once you die, if you succeed in breaking the cycle you cease to be altogether so I dont know how that is reconciled.
    Yes, sorta, and no. The Tibetans in particular elaborate on the bardo or "after death" states. Anatman is an interesting idea, and the analogy usually used is "one candle goes out, but before doing so its flame ignites a second candle", the first and second candle are not the same but the flame is transferred nonetheless. Finally, in the analogy the flame is transferred, so just by physically dying once you don't get off the wheel of death and rebirth. Skandhas, karmas, etc, carry over. They just aren't a "permanent entity"

    It also interests me the manner in which a sould is conceptualised, in any case these spiritual accounts describe the soul as being something which is you and a body just something which you temporarily possess,
    I've usually read that some of the subtle bodies dissolve in each incarnation, just like the physical body, and some don't.


    Of course, this is all just stuff I've read, which may or may not actually be true, and its not like I've had any personal experiences about dying...

  9. #19
    Senior Member InsatiableCuriosity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pixelholic View Post
    well all atoms have an electrical charge so I don't know why humans and animals having it would prove a soul. When a body dies the atoms don't cease to exist.

    I guess my point is, until there is definitive proof of a soul then I'm not going to concern myself with it.

    Though technically reincarnation does exist... just not a continuation of consciousness.

    And there's no evidence for dualism either.

    The intention website just looks like a call for prayer without calling it prayer. They don't have a list of any of their credentials and there's no sign of peer review at all. It seems like they'd have a hard time controlling for placebo effect and other things, the experiment itself seems to be flawed and unfalsifiable.
    If you went to each of the websites of each of the institutions from which the scientists in my link hail, you would no doubt find their credentials/pedigree.

    It does strike me as ironic however that in a forum of intelligent people (who should be open-minded), the need for such a pedigree would probably have seen many, had they lived in Einstein's times, deny any credibility of his theories???
    "Study hard what interests you the most in the most undisciplined, irreverent and original manner possible."
    — Richard P. Feynman

    "Never tell a person a thing is impossible. G*d/the Universe may have been waiting all this time for someone ignorant enough of the impossibility to do just that thing."
    author unknown

  10. #20
    Senior Member Pixelholic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InsatiableCuriosity View Post
    If you went to each of the websites of each of the institutions from which the scientists in my link hail, you would no doubt find their credentials/pedigree.

    It does strike me as ironic however that in a forum of intelligent people (who should be open-minded), the need for such a pedigree would probably have seen many, had they lived in Einstein's times, deny any credibility of his theories???
    I did go through the links, there wasn't anything resembling any kind of link to any peer review or anything that "proves" scientific credentials. Having a phd on your name really isn't helpful either since there are plenty of places to get that kind of degree easily. So I'm skeptical.

    Your last sentence is a little screwy but I get what you're saying. The biggest difference is that most of Einstein's theories are falsifiable and competing theories have often been brought up against them. That's the nature of the scientific method. The lack of a trail of credentials on the sites you linked is only part of the issue, the complete unfalsifiable experiment and conjecture based on it is the other part.

    And don't call me closed minded. I'm actually really interested in consciousness and a lot of my thesis work touches on parts of neuroscience dealing with it. There is interesting research being done in the area of consciousness and ideas of group consciousness and dualism (the latter which isn't regarded very well anymore but still hasn't been completely ruled out.)
    “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.” -Nietzsche

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