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  1. #1
    Senior Member Iriohm's Avatar
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    Default Who, or what, is this "God"?

    I've hit upon an epiphany. First, there exists a certain form of logic (don't ask me what it's called) that deals in inferring the existance of one thing based off the existance of another, similar thing. Secondly, not to sound concieted, but I am a very imaginative person, with a personal world (literal, detailed, and persistant) contained within my mind. Therefore, by the afore mentioned logic, we may assume that, if I and others like me are capable of creating such worlds, than some higher mind could have created the one we live in.

    Inevitably, some people "grow out" of imagination as they get older, perhaps through peer pressure, perhaps simply because life distracts them. These people become the stereotypical "office drones" I mentioned earlier, falling away from reflecting their creator through creating in turn. Conversely, other's retain this ability, actively challenging the systems that everyone lives by, effectively staving off stagnation, and displaying more vibrance and individuality as well. Suffice to say, this puts such a supreme being into a perspective that differs somewhat from the traditional Christian viewpoint. For instance, in an imagined world (mine, at least), it is impossible for any truely sentient behavior to spring forth without it being at least a subconcious extention, or reflection rather, of my own sentience. There are a variety of distinct and separate personalities within this world, each representing a different aspect of their creator, with the remainder of the population "fading into the background", acting as a group rather than as individuals, and often with less vibrance. Taking this a level up, it becomes an analogy for the creative thinker versus the stereotypical "office drone", and also suggests that all sentient life, in some way, is a reflection, or extension, of its creator. Perhaps people think and act as a group, displaying a vague sort of sentience, but nothing individualistic, unless they are identified and recognized by their creator as individuals, and thus begin to reflect specific aspects of him or her. Furthermore, if you add free will to this mix, the creator becomes not many of one, but one with jurisdiction over many, thus taking away the power that this argument just gave him/her.

    Do you understand what I'm saying? We are all, in an admittedly convoluted sense, God, each of us acting independantly, yet at the same time an extention of one impossibly large sentience. Or perhaps, if one were to take the argument further, there is no impossibly large sentience, and "God" is simply a descriptive term for the sum total of every sentient lifeform in the multi-verse. "God" as an all-encompassing force, not as an all-encompassing entity. "God" as the very definition of creative thought, imagination, and life.

    On the other hand, what if "God" is sentient? If so, why did he/she create the world in the first place? People create new worlds when their bored with the one's they already have, Imagination 101, so could it be said that he/she is bored with whatever world he/she inhabits, if any? If there is an "overworld", one in which this person lives, are there others there like him/her? And if that world exists, who created it? How many layers are there, worlds within worlds, and how far can you travel through them before reaching the end, assuming there even is one?
    "Quiiri ath metahn i'ashei?"
    Chronically Gephyrophobic

  2. #2
    What is, is. Arthur Schopenhauer's Avatar
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    A great imagination doesn't really make you a supernatural being. It does allow you to change the meaning of words though.

    Still, If man created god, then who is god?
    INTJ | 5w4 - Sp/Sx/So | 5-4-(9/1) | RLoEI | Melancholic-Choleric | Johari & Nohari

    This will not end well...
    But it will at least be poetic, I suppose...

    Hmm... But what if it does end well?
    Then I suppose it will be a different sort of poetry, a preferable sort...
    A sort I could become accustomed to...



  3. #3
    Senior Member Iriohm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MagnificentMind View Post
    A great imagination doesn't really make you a supernatural being.
    Doesn't it? In any case, I don't believe I said that. My intention was to convey that imagination allows one to create all manner of things, very possibly in exactly the same way that their creator created them.

    Quote Originally Posted by MagnificentMind View Post
    It does allow you to change the meaning of words though.
    Not sure what you mean. Is there some kind of hidden point here?

    Quote Originally Posted by MagnificentMind View Post
    Still, If man created god, then who is god?
    "God" is man, the sum total of all sentient life, oft described as a creator who created himself/herself. Do note that this doesn't afford man any bragging rights, since it was "God" who created "man", not the other way around. The distinction shouldn't matter, but it does.
    "Quiiri ath metahn i'ashei?"
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  4. #4
    What is, is. Arthur Schopenhauer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iriohm Bladewalker View Post
    Doesn't it? In any case, I don't believe I said that. My intention was to convey that imagination allows one to create all manner of things, very possibly in exactly the same way that their creator created them.
    God is unlimited whereas the human mind has specific boundaries. This would mean that god has the capacity to create things that would be beyond human understanding. Now, the case is very much different with humans, you cannot create anything that is beyond your understanding - for instance, you cannot create a color that does not exist in this world. Anything and everything your mind creates is simply a vomiting of old data. For instance, let's say you've created a green alien with blue legs and diamond eyes: all of these alien qualities are completely within the confines of our understanding and, if you think about it, all of the qualities the alien has are simply excerpts from other realizable objects; arms from a man, legs from a cow, etc.

    You cannot create anything absolutely new, really. So you can't create anything at all, you can only regurgitate things that already exist - within certain contexts of course.

    Not sure what you mean. Is there some kind of hidden point here?
    It's a secret.

    "God" is man, the sum total of all sentient life, oft described as a creator who created himself/herself. Do note that this doesn't afford man any bragging rights, since it was "God" who created "man", not the other way around. The distinction shouldn't matter, but it does.
    So you say, Mr. God.
    INTJ | 5w4 - Sp/Sx/So | 5-4-(9/1) | RLoEI | Melancholic-Choleric | Johari & Nohari

    This will not end well...
    But it will at least be poetic, I suppose...

    Hmm... But what if it does end well?
    Then I suppose it will be a different sort of poetry, a preferable sort...
    A sort I could become accustomed to...



  5. #5
    What is, is. Arthur Schopenhauer's Avatar
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    I'm tired. I see what this thread is about now. Brb, sleep.
    INTJ | 5w4 - Sp/Sx/So | 5-4-(9/1) | RLoEI | Melancholic-Choleric | Johari & Nohari

    This will not end well...
    But it will at least be poetic, I suppose...

    Hmm... But what if it does end well?
    Then I suppose it will be a different sort of poetry, a preferable sort...
    A sort I could become accustomed to...



  6. #6
    Senior Member Iriohm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MagnificentMind View Post
    God is unlimited whereas the human mind has specific boundaries. This would mean that god has the capacity to create things that would be beyond human understanding. Now, the case is very much different with humans, you cannot create anything that is beyond your understanding - for instance, you cannot create a color that does not exist in this world. Anything and everything your mind creates is simply a vomiting of old data. For instance, let's say you've created a green alien with blue legs and diamond eyes: all of these alien qualities are completely within the confines of our understanding and, if you think about it, all of the qualities the alien has are simply excerpts from other realizable objects; arms from a man, legs from a cow, etc.

    You cannot create anything absolutely new, really. So you can't create anything at all, you can only regurgitate things that already exist - within certain contexts of course.
    Don't I know it, but at what point do you draw the line? Is whoever created our specific universe really the supreme creator, and if he/she's not, who created him/her, and then who created that person? Everyone gets there ideas from somewhere, but at what point do you call the refuter cheaper than the refutee? See the following conversation:

    Refutee: I've come up with a new kind of creature. It has four stubby legs and three wings on its back.

    Refuter (examining the drawing): You obviously got the wing idea from a dragonfly.

    Refutee: Then I'll take the wings off.

    Refuter: Everyone has legs. Giving it legs isn't very original.

    Refutee: Then I'll take the legs off.

    (The drawing is little more than a green blob at this point)

    Refuter: The concept of "green" is equally unoriginal, as is the spherical shape.

    Refutee: Then I'll invent a new shape! *scribbles a mass of lines onto the paper*

    Refuter (examining the finished drawing): The concept of "lines" is also unoriginal.

    Refutee: Screw you.
    A somewhat...colored excerpt, but you get the point.

    ...and now I'll explain it too you anyway. I'm not saying that your wrong; heck, I think the same thing. I'm just saying that our current definition of creativity doesn't allow for any, as you say, entirely new ideas. We either redefine creativity, or accept that God is beyond our comprehension (and if we do that, he/she wins ). In other words, exactly what I said before: where do you draw the line?

    Quote Originally Posted by MagnificentMind View Post
    It's a secret.
    ...Curses.

    Quote Originally Posted by MagnificentMind View Post
    So you say, Mr. God.
    Insolent speck! You dare insult your creator!?
    "Quiiri ath metahn i'ashei?"
    Chronically Gephyrophobic

  7. #7
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    Imagination is our means of conceiving new creations within reality. We like to say nothing is impossible, but the fact is that even though much can be accomplished with enough determination and resources, in terms of human capabilities it is simply not true. Anything we imagine and then attempt to create (successfully) in reality is bound by finite limitations.

    Yes, this is similar to how God created the universe. It has been said that the universe seems more like a great thought than anything else. However, to say this makes us God is to overlook to most vital distinction that is that we are created and finitely bound by reality made by infinite God creator. We are made in God's imagine, hence the striking similarity.

    Many seem to think this is unfair, or that because of this God must be powerhungry to retain His unlimited potential while ours remains finite. The reason we think that is because we are given such vast abilities and this creates pride and a sense of expectation. In fact, the reason it is this way is not because God is any of the flawed traits we project, but simply because that is how it needs to be for our own good and I can only assume God must know this. The more we discover about our universe the more it seems tailor fit to our existence, created for us by God. Calling that unfair is like a child throwing a tantrum because they can't drive daddy's porsche. It is simply how it is, and how it is is what's best for us... God is the father and we are the sons of God.

    Blurring this line indeeds alters the nature of what is god from the Christian God of Abraham, because it's the very same role reversal behind original sin and pride. In other words, it's satan-inspired thought.

  8. #8
    Senior Member Iriohm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by foolish heart View Post
    Imagination is our means of conceiving new creations within reality. We like to say nothing is impossible, but the fact is that even though much can be accomplished with enough determination and resources, in terms of human capabilities it is simply not true. Anything we imagine and then attempt to create (successfully) in reality is bound by finite limitations.
    Another distinction here: I never said this reality. If you think something up, it exists; some...

    *raises hand*

    ...some would argue it even exists before you think it up, at least enough so for the purposes of this argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by foolish heart View Post
    Yes, this is similar to how God created the universe. It has been said that the universe seems more like a great thought than anything else. However, to say this makes us God is to overlook to most vital distinction that is that we are created and finitely bound by reality made by infinite God creator. We are made in God's imagine, hence the striking similarity.
    True, and yet false. I said essentially that, as the world in its entirety is contained within God's mind, and we reflect God to a lesser extent, we are all "God" as in "a part of God".

    Quote Originally Posted by foolish heart View Post
    Many seem to think this is unfair, or that because of this God must be powerhungry to retain His unlimited potential while ours remains finite. The reason we think that is because we are given such vast abilities and this creates pride and a sense of expectation. In fact, the reason it is this way is not because God is any of the flawed traits we project, but simply because that is how it needs to be for our own good and I can only assume God must know this. The more we discover about our universe the more it seems tailor fit to our existence, created for us by God. Calling that unfair is like a child throwing a tantrum because they can't drive daddy's porsche. It is simply how it is, and how it is is what's best for us... God is the father and we are the sons of God.
    I'm not sure what to say to this, except that I think we've gotten a bit off topic.

    Quote Originally Posted by foolish heart View Post
    Blurring this line indeeds alters the nature of what is god from the Christian God of Abraham, because it's the very same role reversal behind original sin and pride. In other words, it's satan-inspired thought.
    "Satan-inspired thought"?

    *looks around*

    I sincerely hope you don't mean me.
    "Quiiri ath metahn i'ashei?"
    Chronically Gephyrophobic

  9. #9
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iriohm Bladewalker View Post
    I've hit upon an epiphany. First, there exists a certain form of logic (don't ask me what it's called) that deals in inferring the existance of one thing based off the existance of another, similar thing. Secondly, not to sound concieted, but I am a very imaginative person, with a personal world (literal, detailed, and persistant) contained within my mind. Therefore, by the afore mentioned logic, we may assume that, if I and others like me are capable of creating such worlds, then some higher mind could have created the one we live in.
    Yes, you can use inductive reasoning to leap to that as a possibility. Inductive reasoning is analogical reasoning; it doesn't prove that your concept is correct, it just shows it to be possible/plausible.

    As a writer, I've already had the same thought myself; I am capable of creating an entire world with characters that feel very real and almost seem to write themselves, but they spawn out of me as a reflection of who I am.

    So I have thought about how that suggests the possibility of a being above me from whom all the things that seem to be the "real world" could spawn in turn. Just as the writer has omnisicent and omnipotent control over the contents of the story and the characters who appear, "God" could potentially do the same thing except that instead of writing us down in a book, we are projected into 3D space and 4D reality... meaning "God" would be higher up in the dimensional level. But just as my most "alive" characters seem to have a life of their own, so would we...we might be generated as a reflection of the author but we still also act under our own volition within these dimensions.

    Inevitably, some people "grow out" of imagination as they get older, perhaps through peer pressure, perhaps simply because life distracts them. These people become the stereotypical "office drones" I mentioned earlier, falling away from reflecting their creator through creating in turn. Conversely, other's retain this ability, actively challenging the systems that everyone lives by, effectively staving off stagnation, and displaying more vibrance and individuality as well.
    I agree with the concept, but I do not like you referring to people as "drones" due to the negative connotation. Yes, in a practical sense, "drones" exist in a hive and might all seem to just be about accomplishing a certain practical task without needing to imagine or consider in a "higher plane"... but the entire hive would collapse without the drones' existence and efforts. EVERYONE serves a purpose that is valued and necessary. You might not have meant to suggest a negative connotation, but unfortunately in American culture, the negative connotation is nowadays the standard definition of drone.

    Suffice to say, this puts such a supreme being into a perspective that differs somewhat from the traditional Christian viewpoint. For instance, in an imagined world (mine, at least), it is impossible for any truely sentient behavior to spring forth without it being at least a subconcious extention, or reflection rather, of my own sentience. There are a variety of distinct and separate personalities within this world, each representing a different aspect of their creator, with the remainder of the population "fading into the background", acting as a group rather than as individuals, and often with less vibrance.
    Yeah, you gotta watch this. You distastefully come across as an elitist and rather inexperienced in life. At this stage of my existence, after getting to know lots of types of people, I don't really care if someone is a janitor, a secretary, a DOT worker, a scientist, a theologian, or a dog catcher: We ALL have worlds living within us, bright unique specifics worlds full of hopes and dreams, an entire mysterious array of worlds, and your attitude comes off as dismissive and short-sighted. Dreamers are valuable... but so is everyone else.

    Taking this a level up, it becomes an analogy for the creative thinker versus the stereotypical "office drone", and also suggests that all sentient life, in some way, is a reflection, or extension, of its creator. Perhaps people think and act as a group, displaying a vague sort of sentience, but nothing individualistic, unless they are identified and recognized by their creator as individuals, and thus begin to reflect specific aspects of him or her. Furthermore, if you add free will to this mix, the creator becomes not many of one, but one with jurisdiction over many, thus taking away the power that this argument just gave him/her.
    Free will is an assumption.
    No one is completely free.
    You are currently caught in webs of thinking just from the culture, time period, physical body, family, ethnic background, and economic group you have been raised in, among other things.
    You might feel like you have the power of choice, but all the choices that you have have already been handed to you and you're not aware of choices outside of them.

    Do you understand what I'm saying? We are all, in an admittedly convoluted sense, God, each of us acting independantly, yet at the same time an extention of one impossibly large sentience. Or perhaps, if one were to take the argument further, there is no impossibly large sentience, and "God" is simply a descriptive term for the sum total of every sentient lifeform in the multi-verse. "God" as an all-encompassing force, not as an all-encompassing entity. "God" as the very definition of creative thought, imagination, and life.
    No, I missed your large leap from the prior paragraph to this one.

    On the other hand, what if "God" is sentient? If so, why did he/she create the world in the first place? People create new worlds when their bored with the one's they already have, Imagination 101, so could it be said that he/she is bored with whatever world he/she inhabits, if any? If there is an "overworld", one in which this person lives, are there others there like him/her? And if that world exists, who created it? How many layers are there, worlds within worlds, and how far can you travel through them before reaching the end, assuming there even is one?
    Is there a discernible rational answer to that?
    Or is it just the stuff of speculation?
    It sounds more the realm of philosophy, religion, and creativity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Iriohm Bladewalker View Post
    I'm not sure what to say to this, except that I think we've gotten a bit off topic.
    Yes, it somehow became a discussion of a particular sect of Christian doctrine.

    "Satan-inspired thought"?
    *looks around*
    I sincerely hope you don't mean me.
    Yeah, that was the standard Christian boilerplate there.
    (How's it feel to be the spawn of Satan?)
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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