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  1. #51
    Senior Member Iriohm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by foolish heart View Post
    Even as our imagination is subject to finite reality it too is finite. Even at the cutting edge of human creation after trillions of years, it is still based on finite ideas even though they are not bound by reality.
    You can't create something without tools or raw material, that much is true, but there are other dimensions to the imagination that are infinite, such as the ability to continue created as long as the tools are provided, and to create an infinite variety of new things from the raw material. Read my response to MagnificentMind up there; imagination may be subject to finite measures, but taking that argument too far without redefining imagination at its core would be absurd.

    Not really sure what I'm trying to prove with that...

    Seriously, imagination is finite, and it is infinite. We both win.

    Quote Originally Posted by foolish heart View Post
    Infinity is not subjective, it's always the same because it cannot grow or shrink, or change at all really.
    It is, actually, though the why is difficult to...wait...

    *re-reads sentence*

    You serious? Dude, infinity is subjective by its very nature! It's like darkness and light: without light, there can be no dark, and without finite, there can be no infinite. The universe is infinite; any finite limits are set by us, which means that infinite, being by definition always higher/bigger than finite, is also subjective.

    Quote Originally Posted by foolish heart View Post
    In fact, not only are we limited in what we create, everything good we are and we create has been given by God and so should be fully credited to Him.
    That's an unfair perspective, and it undermines the entire point of God giving us free will in the first place. We choose between good and evil; whatever consequences, good or bad, result from that choice are our responsibility.

    Quote Originally Posted by foolish heart View Post
    The only purpose of making comparisons between ourselves and even with God because we want to take credit/glorify ourselves.
    I certainly didn't start this thread to glorify myself; I started it because I had come up with an interesting view on the nature of the cosmos and wanted to share it with everyone.

    Quote Originally Posted by foolish heart View Post
    our idea of reality, what we think of reality, etc. is subjective belief but it does not change it simply because we want to think of it one way or another.
    No, but our perception of it changes if we do think of it one way or another. You keep saying some variation of this, to which I keep saying that reality is subjective, so how do you know?

    Quote Originally Posted by foolish heart View Post
    I think, perhaps, this is not something people are comfortable with because it accentuates how very, very little we know. But this doesn't mean the truth is unknowable, it just means that there is a flaw in the method of human understanding. The truth is actually quite simple, and within the truth there is even a reason why we don't see it/cant understand it/dont speak it... that is, the original lie: not only are we made in God's image we can be like God, creating reality with our words. However, since this itself is a lie, the reality we attempt to create with our words is also a lie.
    The cake is most definitely a lie.

    Quote Originally Posted by foolish heart View Post
    By dictating our own reality, we also take the position of judging good from bad when we don't actually know better. It's not that reality, good, and bad are subjective in themselves, but our undereducated ideas about them. This is to our own destruction (jumping off the roof is just an exaggerated example).
    I am of the opinion that foreknowledge of what is good and evil is what makes something good or evil. Not knowing an action is wrong (and should consequently be avoided) alleviates responsibility for said action and its consequences.

    Quote Originally Posted by foolish heart View Post
    I think truth is all-encompasing and unchanging, and within it the human mind is inspired by and perpetuated by lies about it. We are so deep in this shit that many people pretend that truth doesn't exist anymore. We are so deep in it that the only freedom from the web of deception of our design (originally inspired by Satan) is not to try and become an absolute reflection of truth (as we are already inspired by lies, lies cannot inspire the truth) but to merely attempt to recognize the truth when we see it, and in doing so, become inspired by and slowly begin to reflect the truth.
    "We are born of truth and lies, the half-way point between heaven and hell. Born of both, we can become neither, but we may reflect."

    Quote Originally Posted by foolish heart View Post
    Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. (John 14:6)
    In light of all this, what do you think Jesus meant when he said that?
    "Quiiri ath metahn i'ashei?"
    Chronically Gephyrophobic

  2. #52
    Member promethathustra's Avatar
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    Literal--through me---as in a door. Look at whatb he did...hang out with whom he did...see what I see!
    "This fearless one always is the same in essence,however.He is Holy heresy born stout lacking the ability to cower or break.The Universe is transparent to him." Me

  3. #53
    What is, is. Arthur Schopenhauer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iriohm Bladewalker View Post
    You can't create something without tools or raw material, that much is true, but there are other dimensions to the imagination that are infinite, such as the ability to continue created as long as the tools are provided, and to create an infinite variety of new things from the raw material. Read my response to MagnificentMind up there; imagination may be subject to finite measures, but taking that argument too far without redefining imagination at its core would be absurd.

    Not really sure what I'm trying to prove with that...

    Seriously, imagination is finite, and it is infinite. We both win.
    Imagination is not infinite... Firstly, its length of existence is limited to the lifespan of the one who is doing the imagining as a mind is required for this action. Secondly, the human brain itself is limited; you cannot imagine, in outstanding detail, one billion seperate red balls. It's impossible because it exceeds the minds processing ability.

    No, you didn't win. You just think you did but you're not sure.

    You serious? Dude, infinity is subjective by its very nature! It's like darkness and light: without light, there can be no dark, and without finite, there can be no infinite. The universe is infinite; any finite limits are set by us, which means that infinite, being by definition always higher/bigger than finite, is also subjective.
    What the fuck? Infinity does not require the finite and light does not require darkness. Fail.

    I am of the opinion that foreknowledge of what is good and evil is what makes something good or evil. Not knowing an action is wrong (and should consequently be avoided) alleviates responsibility for said action and its consequences.
    This only makes sense if you're talking about subjective good or evil. Objective good or evil is absolute.
    INTJ | 5w4 - Sp/Sx/So | 5-4-(9/1) | RLoEI | Melancholic-Choleric | Johari & Nohari

    This will not end well...
    But it will at least be poetic, I suppose...

    Hmm... But what if it does end well?
    Then I suppose it will be a different sort of poetry, a preferable sort...
    A sort I could become accustomed to...



  4. #54
    Senior Member Iriohm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by priestessofmars View Post
    I pretty much agree with everything you're saying and hi its nice to meet you.
    I guess I'm just gonna put my 2cents in but I'm not gonna bother to read all the other posts right now cuz I'm tired
    Imagine God as all 3 of these things, First person, Second person and Third person.
    1st person = I am God
    2nd person = He/She is God
    3rd peson = We are God
    God is not only one of these things God is all of them at once.
    But if I exist as God and We exist as God, then the question is where does He/She the seperate sentient being God exist? That is a pretty awesome question since thinking of it that way suggests that the thought of a sentient entity called God could be rational. Well if God were sentient I don;t think his consciousness would be anything like ours. It would be much more vast and complex... And I don't think God would need a body to be sentient. I just don't think that would be necessary.
    I tend to think of "God" in this sense as the Force, with Jesus, naturally, being Anakin. If you think about it, he/she (or "it" perhaps) would really have to be, unless this is another of those "God is beyond our comprehension" things.

    Quote Originally Posted by priestessofmars View Post
    You should read some of Timothy Leary's writings. Also, Carl Jung. Jung is my homeboy. Have you heard of the collective unconscious? You should look that up, its awesome. :]
    Ah, the Collective Unconscious. I totally invented that.
    "Quiiri ath metahn i'ashei?"
    Chronically Gephyrophobic

  5. #55
    Senior Member Iriohm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MagnificentMind View Post
    I used to think this way but then I realized that this sort of thinking is absolutely incorrect. This is nihilism at its worst. Surely subjective truths exist; some say that there is a god and some say that there is not - some would even say that the presence of multiple truths causes the idea of truth to self-detonate, resulting in truth being mostly untrue. This is true. Now, even though the subjective exists, there is also the objective; three balls are absolutely three balls, a million stars are absolutely a million stars, etc. These are undeniable statements.
    There's truth, and then there's fact. Some speak in one, some speak in the other, and the two generally don't mesh.

    It should be noted here that fact, by my definition, is descriptive of cold, verifiable information gathered from an objective, and often material source. Truth, inversely, has to do more with the spiritual aspects of life; the impossible (but much sought after), perfect hybrid between logic, emotion, and pretty much every other concept ever. The goal of a scientist versus the goal of a philosopher.

    Quote Originally Posted by MagnificentMind View Post
    Secondly, in the world of subjectivity, not all truths are equal. There exists truths that are more reasonable or more acceptable than others and it is these are truths that take precedence over the rest. Some truths are even irrelevant and these are often disregarded as nonsense.
    Naturally.

    Quote Originally Posted by MagnificentMind View Post
    Also, you might notice, that a perfect mind (a god mind) is an absolutely objective one. Again we see an extreme difference between man and god.
    I beg to differ. Sentience depends on two things: the ability to choose, and the inclination to choose. The inclination to choose suggests the preference for one thing over another, which further suggests subjectivity. Therefore, a truly objective mind cannot be sentient.

    ...unless God is sentient, but anything he/she thinks up is automatically the absolute truth since this is his/her universe to begin with.

    Quote Originally Posted by MagnificentMind View Post
    That only makes sense if you refuse to accept reality as it is. This is why they placed it into Assassins Creed - It fit into the plotline of a fictional tale.
    I think it means that nothing is really ever "true", and, essentially, that any limits we encounter are self-imposed.
    "Quiiri ath metahn i'ashei?"
    Chronically Gephyrophobic

  6. #56
    Member promethathustra's Avatar
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    OK...the collective conscious....is mine!~
    "This fearless one always is the same in essence,however.He is Holy heresy born stout lacking the ability to cower or break.The Universe is transparent to him." Me

  7. #57
    What is, is. Arthur Schopenhauer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iriohm Bladewalker View Post
    There's truth, and then there's fact. Some speak in one, some speak in the other, and the two generally don't mesh.
    If a fact is factual then it is true. You are trying to destroy objective truth but this argument won't work.

    It should be noted here that fact, by my definition, is descriptive of cold, verifiable information gathered from an objective, and often material source. Truth, inversely, has to do more with the spiritual aspects of life; the impossible (but much sought after), perfect hybrid between logic, emotion, and pretty much every other concept ever. The goal of a scientist versus the goal of a philosopher.
    No. Your redefinitions are innacurate and your argument fallacious.

    I beg to differ. Sentience depends on two things: the ability to choose, and the inclination to choose. The inclination to choose suggests the preference for one thing over another, which further suggests subjectivity. Therefore, a truly objective mind cannot be sentient.
    No. Sentience depends upon the ability to percieve. When, and only when, a being is able to percieve may he then be called sentient and he may then be able to create comparisons and contrasts in order to choose. A robot arm has both the ability to choose things and its programming inclines it to do so, but it is not truly sentient because it is not aware of its own existence. The specific god of the bible we're talking about is most certainly aware of its existence.

    ...unless God is sentient, but anything he/she thinks up is automatically the absolute truth since this is his/her universe to begin with.
    Which is it then? You're trying to redefine god so much.

    I think it means that nothing is really ever "true", and, essentially, that any limits we encounter are self-imposed.
    No. Within the contexts of the game, the quote was made in refrence to the Piece of Eden; which was an object that could influence and change reality through supernatural means. If you'll note, Altair tried to use the quote to justify his lawlessness and disobedience and that master-guy refuted this position. I can't recall the conversation though.
    INTJ | 5w4 - Sp/Sx/So | 5-4-(9/1) | RLoEI | Melancholic-Choleric | Johari & Nohari

    This will not end well...
    But it will at least be poetic, I suppose...

    Hmm... But what if it does end well?
    Then I suppose it will be a different sort of poetry, a preferable sort...
    A sort I could become accustomed to...



  8. #58
    Ginkgo
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    Infinity can be conceptualized, or else we wouldn't have the concept of infinity.

    All concepts are synthesized from preexisting thoughts or new perceptions.

    God is an abstract concept, and as such it cannot be measured anymore than love, kindness, infinity, or forgetfulness. Instead abstract concepts like these are understood.

    It is the scientists folly to attempt to disprove God.

    One can only understand God by subjective, abstract means. Even then, your understanding may be limited.

    Magnificent mind, you are being too empirical. Please separate the concept of "psyche" from the concept of "brain". Interestingly enough, the word psyche is analogous to "soul". So, you could say that psychology is a science of the soul. I have come to understand that empirically testing such a thing is foolish, and results in a kind of "sucking of one's own soul". Empirically testing behavior, on the other hand, might be more fruitful.

  9. #59
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    Re: the original poster

    Quote Originally Posted by MagnificentMind View Post
    Also, you might notice, that a perfect mind (a god mind) is an absolutely objective one. Again we see an extreme difference between man and god.
    What MM said is another way to describe the fact that what is infinite never changes.

    Our imagination seems infinite, but to say this is to misunderstand what infinity really is. The entire universe and everything within it, including our minds and everything they know and imagine, everything we can think of until the end of time is still finite. It will never be infinite because the period between the beginning and end of time is not forever. It is not forever because there was a beginning and will be an end, and a passage of time between them.

    Even in it's unfathomable vastness, it's the universe's finite nature which indicates an infinite creator. Contemplate the magnificent intricacy and nearly infinite vastness of the cosmos for a moment. Infinite God created that by speaking it into existence. Although, one wonders if it is only described that way to make sense to us who use language and make things within finite time. Personally I don't think God would need to speak or take 6 days to create the universe... more likely he would simply willed it into existence. That is what infinite is... time and the universe can only exist within it. Another possible theory I thought of was that time/universe was created from outside of time, so 6 days may just be a way of simply breaking down the creation of the universe, the world, the entirety of human existence, and a 7th "day" of rest may be post-apocalypse existence that extends forever into infinitude.


    Re: question about John 14:6

    I believe that Jesus was speaking definitively, that were it not for Him there would be no retribution. It is to say, our fellowship with God is severed, and God being the giver of life, the outcome of such is spiritual death. To redeem us, Jesus maintained perfect fellowship with God, became the sin the severes our fellowship with God, and then He died, and being sin, the sin died with him. At that point the consequence of spiritual death (the "law") had been fulfilled. Then, He rose from the dead without sin.

    This can be quite difficult to wrap your head around because you can think about it for the rest of your life and still not fully grasp the meaning. In fact, it means everything.

    God created the law for our good, it was broken without any way for us to reconcile ourselves, then Jesus fulfilled reconciliation on our behalf and provided a way for us to be in fellowship with God. Jesus was God incarnate man who perfectly reflected God's truth. Jesus was the means by which our existence was created, as this fellowship with God was severed we are faced with spiritual death were it not for payment by Jesus' death, but more importantly the subsequent spiritual life granted in his resurrection.

    "The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not understood it". This speaks of the power of the resurrection of Christ. I know much of the focus is on Jesus' crucifixion, but what's truly mysterious and amazing is Jesus' resurrection, for this reason:

    God creates human life. God provides law for the greatest good of human life. God fully pays the consequence of the law when human ignores it and in doing so fulfills His own law. Lastly, God provides spiritual life and regeneration beyond "mere" reconciliation. To understand this is to know distinctly that Jesus not only paid the consequence of sin but overcame the consequence that is spiritual death. Despite his humble life, Jesus was still all-powerful God so this is a powerful implication that through faith in what Jesus did you will simply know why we are absolutely freed from sin and will no longer be enslaved to it. This is the truth which sets you free, the way back into fellowship with God, and reconnecting with the spiritual life which that provides for an eternity.

    It's Jesus' resurrection which I think best illustrates that God provides literally everything we need regardless of what we chose to do with it. It is things like this which allude to God's infinite love, and the reason why we can take Jesus at his word when he says "do not be afraid"... even when we don't believe it, feel it, understand it, or most of all act in a way as if we want it, God love for us remains totally fulfilling in a eternal context.


    ...I often struggle to fathom it. Imagine if your father instructed you for your own good, then when you didn't listen, he interceded and suffered on your behalf, and afterwards welcomed you to be close again so you could continue in a way that was best for your own good. Bah, I'm rambling, but the more I understand this love the more I realize there's nothing like it on earth.

  10. #60
    Shaman BlackCat's Avatar
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    If you found God, what would happen?
    () 9w8-3w4-7w6 tritype.

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