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  1. #21
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post
    How do you want to experience it? You could go out and do some charity work, or maybe a mission. Those sorts of things can change your experience quite deeply.

    ... Or are you talking about drug induced spiritual trips or something? Uhh...
    I'm definitely not talking about drugs or anything like that, I've done the whole charitable work etc. trip, although I'd say that I dont see that any longer as having a spiritual aspect to it, no I'm talking being able to have some kind of otherworld experience in the present here and now, the trips of inspiration which you read about in mystics books

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I'm definitely not talking about drugs or anything like that, I've done the whole charitable work etc. trip, although I'd say that I dont see that any longer as having a spiritual aspect to it, no I'm talking being able to have some kind of otherworld experience in the present here and now, the trips of inspiration which you read about in mystics books
    Those people would qualify as having delusional experiences by contemporary physicians. Probably in need of psychiatric medication.

  3. #23
    Listening Oaky's Avatar
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    Type may affect the tendency to want to do something. Not limit it.

  4. #24
    Reason vs Being ragashree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I'm definitely not talking about drugs or anything like that, I've done the whole charitable work etc. trip, although I'd say that I dont see that any longer as having a spiritual aspect to it, no I'm talking being able to have some kind of otherworld experience in the present here and now, the trips of inspiration which you read about in mystics books
    Would that answer all your questions, if you had even one such experience? Or would it simply provoke more doubts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post
    Those people would qualify as having delusional experiences by contemporary physicians. Probably in need of psychiatric medication.
    You sure about that, Tater? Can people legitimately be diagnosed as being psychologically dysfunctional purely on the basis of their subjective personal experiences not matching with an expected societal norm? Or do there have to be broader issues at stake, such as the effect of their experiences on their personalities, and the effect of their personalities and behaviour on those around them and the society they live in?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oakysage View Post
    Type may affect the tendency to want to do something. Not limit it.
    This seems plausible. I really don't think any type or group of types has a monopoly on personal and "spiritual" development, and it's dangerous and potentially limiting to the growth of self and others to assume that someone's type will affect this capacity in any particular way. Type considerations have some potential to suggest how we are likely to approach questions, but no role at all in determining the comparative value of the answers we ultimately arrive at.
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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by ragashree View Post

    You sure about that, Tater? Can people legitimately be diagnosed as being psychologically dysfunctional purely on the basis of their subjective personal experiences not matching with an expected societal norm? Or do there have to be broader issues at stake, such as the effect of their experiences on their personalities, and the effect of their personalities and behaviour on those around them and the society they live in?



    Well, consensus does not dictate truth. I'm just concerned about peoples' well-being here. Would living an ascetic life, or sitting in confinement, or some other mystical-experience inducing thing cause more harm than help?

    On the other hand, you could say that not having a mystical experience is unhealthy.

    So I'm kind of speechless. I had a book that pertained to this, not sure where it went. :steam:

  6. #26
    Reason vs Being ragashree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post
    Well, consensus does not dictate truth. I'm just concerned about peoples' well-being here. Would living an ascetic life, or sitting in confinement, or some other mystical-experience inducing thing cause more harm than help?
    To answer that, we need to define "harm" and "help" satisfactorily
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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by ragashree View Post
    To answer that, we need to define "harm" and "help" satisfactorily
    Help - yield a result for the individual that would be satisfactory and beneficial, physically, emotionally, or spiritually.

    Harm - yield a result for the individual that would be unsatisfactory and hurtful, physically, emotionally, or spiritually.

    The physically/emotionally/spiritually part tends to be rearranged according to the priorities of the person.

  8. #28
    Reason vs Being ragashree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post
    Help - yield a result for the individual that would be satisfactory and beneficial, physically, emotionally, or spiritually.

    Harm - yield a result for the individual that would be unsatisfactory and hurtful, physically, emotionally, or spiritually.

    The physically/emotionally/spiritually part tends to be rearranged according to the priorities of the person.
    Good, so whose decision should the arrangement of these priorities be? The person themselves, or another, or "society" who claims to know what is in their best interests?
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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by ragashree View Post
    Good, so whose decision should the arrangement of these priorities be? The person themselves, or another, or "society" who claims to know what is in their best interests?
    Inconclusive.

    How can you always determine what is best for you? How can another? Furthermore, who can determine the ailment, and what the remedy should be? Everyone asks different questions and has different answers about these issues.

    Society certainly does not always know what's in the best interest of itself or its members.

    No one's infallible.

    Which is why some people turn to God for those sort of answers.

    Which is precisely what this thread is all about. Mystical experiences.

    But no one has actually been able to "see" God and properly describe it. There's a reason for that, you know. It's beyond human barriers, beyond conscious barriers.

    Reminds me of a poem by Huxley...

    My close-walled soul has never known
    That innermost darkness, dazzling sight,
    Like the blind point, whence the visions spring
    In the core of the gazer's chrysolite…
    The mystic darkness that laps God's throne
    In a splendour beyond imagining,
    So passing bright.

    But the many twisted darknesses
    That range the city to and fro,
    In aimless subtlety pass and part
    And ebb and glutinously flow;
    Darkness of lust and avarice,
    Of the crippled body and the crooked heart…
    These darknesses I know.

  10. #30
    Reason vs Being ragashree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post
    Inconclusive.

    How can you always determine what is best for you? How can another? Furthermore, who can determine the ailment, and what the remedy should be? Everyone asks different questions and has different answers about these issues.

    Society certainly does not always know what's in the best interest of itself or its members.
    Right, so hopefully you'd agree that purely on the basis of self-determination and freedom of conscience there's no intrinsic reason to view someone who has what they percieve as "mystical" experiences which may also be interpreted pathologically, as some sort of psychosis, as disordered? If their behaviour is otherwise disordered or disruptive, and particularly if they are unable to fend for themselves or are a danger to others, this raises new questions about whether they are sane or socially functional by comon consent or establised criteria for trying to determine sanity and healthy functioning, of course.

    But no one has actually been able to "see" God and properly describe it. There's a reason for that, you know. It's beyond human barriers, beyond conscious barriers.
    Yet some people have claimed to, when in states of variously altered consciousness, which may be interpreted either pathologically OR as a sign of divine favour, depending on one's perspective. The difficulty in finding words to effectively describe it perhaps can be taken as reflecting the supernormal nature of the experience, one for which everyday life has not equipped us with an adequate vocabulary to communicate the understanding of the experiencer on the one hand, and for the person who has not had the experience to form an adeqate understanding of what is being described on the other.

    What's your take on this? Does the impossibility of comprehending these experiences fully without having experienced them oneself constitute a reason for dismissing their plausibility and concentrating on understanding faith at a more rational level, in terms of what can be directly percieved? Or is it as the various mystical and contemplative streams of faith suggest, a reason to develop one's own consciousness in order to try to access the experiences of which others speak and form your own unique understanding based on this?
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