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  1. #11
    AKA Nunki Polaris's Avatar
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    It isn't that there's no certainty; it's that to be certain of something is to raise it up as a hypothesis that awaits confirmation. You can take the simplest, most indisputable statement--I'm certain there's a chair over there--and the moment you say it, you get the feeling you're somehow on trial. Maybe that isn't a chair after all, or maybe someone will challenge me and I'll have to defend myself. Certainty is always in question, always vulnerable to correction, and the first thing we've got is certainty (and I question that).
    [ Ni > Ti > Fe > Fi > Ne > Te > Si > Se ][ 4w5 sp/sx ][ RLOAI ][ IEI-Ni ]

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I don't think a lot of people will really be impacted by whatever fine-tuned issue this is. You're only going to get the higher elite and those whose work is impacted by it to care / be emotionally rocked, if that.
    God died in 1859 with the publication of, "The Origin of Species", but we have those on this site whose whole life revolves around God.

    So just as there are those who don't believe God is dead, so there are those who don't believe mathematics are dead. I mean it's unimaginable. But read Kurt Gödel to find it true.

    But even Kurt couldn't believe it and devoted his life to proving it wasn't true by a mathematical description of intuition. Kurt failed. He went mad and starved himself to death.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Newtonian physics didn't work perfectly -- so it wasn't Right -- but it was darn close enough for all practical purposes to satisfy the needs of the majority of people in the world.
    It's that we can't tell in advance which mathematical problems are soluble. So all we can do is try to solve them and see if there is a solution.

    This is devastating for mathematics which purported to tell us which problems were soluble, but now it can't.

    A problem may or may not be soluble but we don't know and will never know unless we solve it first.

    So the whole edifice of mathematics is unknowable forever.

  4. #14
    Welcome to Sunnyside Mondo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    It's worse than that. It is not complexity that blocks our comprehension, but the very nature of mathematics.

    This is an extraordinary discovery and one that leads to a loop that if pursued leads to madness and suicide.

    One possible course of action is to become accustomed to paradox and cognitive dissonance. But this is too much for children to bear, and so we teach them fairy stories such as we understand the world through mathematics.

    But just as we wait until they are seven to tell them Santa doesn't exist, we may need to wait until twenty-two to tell them mathematics doesn't exist.

    It's hard to believe, isn't it?
    Are you arguing mathematics is an illusion equivalent to Santa??
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  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mondo View Post
    Are you arguing mathematics is an illusion equivalent to Santa??
    Yes.

    Preposterous, you say. Well, even Kurt Gödel thought is was preposterous, and tried to prove it wrong but he failed and starved himself to death.

    I hope, though, I haven't spoiled your appetite.

  6. #16
    Senior Member Pixelholic's Avatar
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    You should just argue from semiotics and deconstruction. You'll make a bit more sense.
    “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.” -Nietzsche

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pixelholic View Post
    You should just argue from semiotics and deconstruction. You'll make a bit more sense.
    I had my first encounter with mathematics at the age of seven. But even then it was obvious to me that what I was being shown had no basis.

    I mentioned this to my father and he told me not to worry about it but just do the maths. And naturally I followed my father's advice. But it still niggled at me until I read George Spencer Brown's book, "The Laws of Form", and discovered the beginning of all mathematics in the injunction, "Make a distinction".

    And having discovered the beginning, I was primed to discover the end which I did in Kurt Gödel's Incompleteness Theorems in his 1931 work, "Über formal unentscheidbare Sätze der Principia Mathematica und verwandter Systeme, I. Monatshefte für Mathematik und Physik".

    I may well make no sense to you but Albert Einstein would walk Kurt Gödel home from work every day because he publicly recognised Kurt made sense and was a mathematical genius.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    God died in 1859 with the publication of, "The Origin of Species", but we have those on this site whose whole life revolves around God.

    So just as there are those who don't believe God is dead, so there are those who don't believe mathematics are dead. I mean it's unimaginable. But read Kurt Gödel to find it true.

    But even Kurt couldn't believe it and devoted his life to proving it wasn't true by a mathematical description of intuition. Kurt failed. He went mad and starved himself to death.
    How did God die with darwins theory? that's a fallacy, if you look at it from a different angle his theory explains God's work within the universe, and our connection with other living creatures.

  9. #19
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    Mathematics is only useful when it is put into practice as a tool to construct things, when there is just theory it is unlimited and useless.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by jixmixfix View Post
    How did God die with darwins theory that makes no sense what so ever, if you look at it from a different angel his theory explains God's work within the universe, and our connection with other living creatures.
    I understand you are as reluctant to let go of God as letting go of mathematics.

    You are certainly not alone.

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