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  1. #1
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Default Different belief systems

    How do you deal or cope with people who have a different belief system? I become incredibly frustrated with people who believe differently than me because...well I think I'm always right. Sadly, I generally want to argue with them and make them understand my point of view. Would you say that is just a human trait or a lack of maturity?

    Regardless, it is easy to say that you are tolerant of other people's beliefs, but how tolerant are you when somebody is trying to impose their religious/political beliefs or view of the world on your life? It seems that this is the core of most conflicts in the world. Different people value different rights, and when those rights contradict with each other, there are fireworks.

    Of course the more relative in your beliefs that you become, the more frustrating it becomes to listen to those who believe in absolutes. And I imagine it is equally as frustrating for those who believe in absolutes to discuss things with those who believe that life is relative to experience and culture.

    Of course, the relative perspective is often the most logical because we do develop our beliefs systems based on our family, community, religion, etc. However, logic isn't perfect, and it would also seem wise to strive for ideals based on absolute beliefs. Would you say your views are more relative or absolute?

    It also seems our beliefs systems are terribly confounded by the past, present, and future. We wish to maintain what has worked, but we also want to find solutions for problems that we are currently facing, and on top of that we still want to strive forward. Where should our focus be in addressing our beliefs systems and the belief systems of others? Should we be aiming for tradition, compromise, or progress?

    It seems that a good share of people just blindly follow their beliefs. Is that wise? Wouldn't it be to everyone's advantage to understand why you believe what you believe? Or is there some benefit to being ignorant of your own belief system? How many of our beliefs have no basis other than what has been dictated by our respected religions or been passed down by our parents? How should beliefs be passed on to children? Should they be indoctrinated or allowed to choose what they believe for themselves?

    It seems there are a lot of questions I have about different belief systems. I'm curious as to see what people have to say.

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    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
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    I like debating and discussing things but generally it doesn't bother me at all that people look at the world differently, think differently, or have different views than me. I take it for granted.

    I think for most people, the only time differences of opinion bother them is when they feel invested in the matter at hand. So something trivial but common, if you really like a certain tv show or band or type of music and someone else hates it and thinks only losers like it. You might get a little offended depending on who and how they said it. And you might want to argue against that.

    I think what you were referring to though were the BIG belief systems that seem opposite like Christianity vs. Atheism, Capitalism vs. Communism, Hunting vs. Veganism.

    Even so, I don't think people when they disagree with you or express a view different from yours that they necessarily are trying to change your mind.

    I think a lot of people are of the mind, 'I don't care so much what you do as long as you don't try to impose it on me'

    And most people realize that practically speaking it is IMPOSSIBLE to change everyone's minds to think exactly like you. Nor would they want to. I think people discussed this a little in the 'what if the world was populated only by your type'

    The problem is, life and the world being what they are, often times just having a particular view necessitates acting on it, which inevitably means involving or touching upon someone else.

    It's that constant conflict of different and sometimes opposing energies that moves the world along. I think most scholars, like sociologists and anthropologies say that different cultures and schools of thought are ALWAYS influenced by contact with other cultures and schools of thought. Doesn't mean they adopt the new one, but they are affected.

    Is that vague enough for you?

  3. #3
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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    It depends on the belief.

    Often times I'll just take a position for the fun of a debate. But if it's something I firmly believe (atheism, Buddhism, psychology are the areas I feel most strongly about) then yeah, I KNOW I'm right and I want to convince everyone otherwise, if they are in conflict and don't seem too emotionally attached to their opinions or to being debated. I don't think it has anything to do with immaturity, but that might be immaturity talking. :P


  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    How do you deal or cope with people who have a different belief system? I become incredibly frustrated with people who believe differently than me because...well I think I'm always right. Sadly, I generally want to argue with them and make them understand my point of view. Would you say that is just a human trait or a lack of maturity?
    I do the same thing. But often it is because I hastily assume I have understood their position, and find it untenable. But generally, I like asking (non-rhetorical) questions to procede in a peaceful yet honest and principled manner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    Regardless, it is easy to say that you are tolerant of other people's beliefs, but how tolerant are you when somebody is trying to impose their religious/political beliefs or view of the world on your life? It seems that this is the core of most conflicts in the world. Different people value different rights, and when those rights contradict with each other, there are fireworks.
    I am tolerant as long as I can continue to live according to my beliefs. I can't see how we can really ask anyone to be more tolerant than that. I am willing to change my mind if I am mistaken (and have).

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    Of course the more relative in your beliefs that you become, the more frustrating it becomes to listen to those who believe in absolutes. And I imagine it is equally as frustrating for those who believe in absolutes to discuss things with those who believe that life is relative to experience and culture.

    Of course, the relative perspective is often the most logical because we do develop our beliefs systems based on our family, community, religion, etc. However, logic isn't perfect, and it would also seem wise to strive for ideals based on absolute beliefs. Would you say your views are more relative or absolute?
    I believe in absolutes. But not everything has absolutes. Absolute relativsm is self contradictory. I am probably more relative than absolute in my beliefs. But I believe many of the "relative" beliefs form "homomorphic" frameworks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    It also seems our beliefs systems are terribly confounded by the past, present, and future. We wish to maintain what has worked, but we also want to find solutions for problems that we are currently facing, and on top of that we still want to strive forward. Where should our focus be in addressing our beliefs systems and the belief systems of others? Should we be aiming for tradition, compromise, or progress?
    That question is addressed in my sig.:
    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.

    By that, I mean we should accept what has happened as unchangable, and learn the principles we can from them. We need to make the present moment be where our mind is and where we live and concentrate on. We act now, not earlier, nor sometime later, even if the "action" is contemplation or reading. However, we should always work for a beter future to look forward to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    It seems that a good share of people just blindly follow their beliefs. Is that wise? Wouldn't it be to everyone's advantage to understand why you believe what you believe? Or is there some benefit to being ignorant of your own belief system? How many of our beliefs have no basis other than what has been dictated by our respected religions or been passed down by our parents? How should beliefs be passed on to children? Should they be indoctrinated or allowed to choose what they believe for themselves?
    We (people I know) are always learning, and refining our systems of beliefs. In the mean time, we act on our current beliefs. Some of it is blind, some of it is well examined. IMO, some traditions we don't understand is a good sign. These are long-developed, ancient systems. Some of it has meaning that someone of my limited experience should not be able to understand completely. A lot of my beliefs are also based on what we call "science", but I have personally replicated very few of the experiments, observations that were claimed to be done. I accept them, due to their self-coherence, and consistency with my other beliefs, and some degree of trust regarding my ability to replicate the experiments and observations implied in literature or theory given appropriate equipment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    It seems there are a lot of questions I have about different belief systems. I'm curious as to see what people have to say.
    I could go on for a long time. Thinking about belief systems is one of the things I spend a lot of time on. Epistemology especially.

    I wanted, at one point to start creating maps between various long-established belief systems to try to find homomorphisms in beliefs between individuals suscribing to the various systems. But the task is outside my reach with the mathematical tools I have learned so far.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
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  5. #5
    Senior Member swordpath's Avatar
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    I am tolerant of people choosing to believe whatever they'd like and I enjoy discussion on the subject.

    I am intolerant of being preached to and feeling like I'm being spoken to condescendingly because I lack faith in a deity.

  6. #6
    Senior Member reason's Avatar
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    I find it difficult being right all of the time, and few recognise the tremendous effort which that requires. Woe me.
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

  7. #7
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    How do you deal or cope with people who have a different belief system? I become incredibly frustrated with people who believe differently than me because...well I think I'm always right. Sadly, I generally want to argue with them and make them understand my point of view. Would you say that is just a human trait or a lack of maturity?
    It's both a human trait and a lack of maturity. When I was younger I was a lot more frustrated with people who saw the world differently, because I didn't understand them. The ironic thing about wanting to be right is that you get into a mentality of wanting the other person to understand your point of view, but at the same time you fail to understand their point of view.

    I think an admirable trait is to actually be able to listen and understand the perspective of someone you disagree with. In doing this I have come to feel a lot of grey toward most beliefs, but there are a few core beliefs which are especially reinforced. In examining all of the possible viewpoints I can determine whether I am being unreasonable in my thinking and which viewpoint is truly the correct one (when a correct viewpoint actually exists).
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  8. #8
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    I'm quite tolerant of people beleiving whatever they want AS LONG AS THEY UNDERSTAND WHY THEY THINK THAT WAY!

    What never ceases to piss me off is when people blindly follow something but have no f$%#ing idea as to why they think that way! If you're going to put the effort into beleiving something shouldn't you at least do yourself the courtesey of understanding it?!? :steam: I grew up in a small conservative town in which people were all too willing to beleive what thier parents and other elders told them without ever questioning it or understanding WHY they were thinking that way- people would agree with a liberal stance on something and then declare that all liberals were evil purely because they didn't F*&^ing understand what a liberal was or where thier beleifs fell on the ideological spectrum!

    When I have met someone who KNOWS why they beleive something though- even if they do beleive the opposite from me- I'm willing to accept that, because they have a good reason to think that way. One of my good friends is a strong libretarian, while I'm a pretty leftish liberal- we've always gotten along well since we've both accepted that our life experiences have been different, and given the other's set of circumstances we may think the same as them. This type of friendship is not unheard of among political science majors!

    Sorry for the mini-rant in there that's just an issue that never ceases to annoy me!
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  9. #9
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    How do you deal or cope with people who have a different belief system?
    I don't particularily care, actually. If it involves my personal life and it is in the way of being friends, then I'm not friends with them. If it's a work, it shouldn't be involved. If it doesn't affect our friendship or the things I value in a friendship, then I don't care. Actually, I like the third one the most - I like having diverse friends in order to see what and how they think, but only up to the point where it doesn't cause the friendship to be unhealthy.

    On the other hand, going to eat with Muslims, Vegetarians and Hindus... at the same time... is quite a thought excersize. Especially with personal choice included (No mushrooms, no lamb, no fish, no pork, no beef). Feels like a travelling salesman problem every time.

    Would you say that is just a human trait or a lack of maturity?
    It's a subset of human traits, for sure - different degrees, etc. It's not maturity or age related, least not directly. Some people get worse, others get better. (Kind of a pull between how open one is and how accepting, and they don't move together.)

    Regardless, it is easy to say that you are tolerant of other people's beliefs, but how tolerant are you when somebody is trying to impose their religious/political beliefs or view of the world on your life?
    I have no tolerance for this. I tend to operate on a "mirroring" basis. I have someone sharing my room now who is very religious but he talks all about his religion, the history and the influence on his country. No problems with that - I haven't felt any pressure to "convert" or an attack on my beliefs... and so I reflect that back - I talk about Canada and it's (lack of) history, religious breakdown, etc.

    But if someone decides to push, I push back. I also generally find I'm a lot less nice than the other person at this point in my life. They either back down and realise the line I've drawn, or step over it. Stepping over it ends any attempt to be considerate. I had an important lesson on this a long time back when I was "dating" someone very religious. Their community was poison and I put up with their comments for too long. I don't do that anymore.

    Of course, the exception here is when we are talking about beliefs. I don't mind hearing why they believe things, etc. Calling me to tell me I'm going to hell and the suffering I will endure is not acceptable, unless you want to be called down in kind.

    Would you say your views are more relative or absolute?
    Relative, I suppose. It's more absolute in the sense that I need beliefs to be "holistic", that I don't agree with any belief until it manages to deduce itself.

    Where should our focus be in addressing our beliefs systems and the belief systems of others? Should we be aiming for tradition, compromise, or progress?
    To be blunt - anything other than progress is pointless, least as a society. Progress is, by definition, the continued adaptation to a changing environment. To not embrace it is to become stagnant and eventually be replaced.

    But of course, progress for progress sake is stupid - change needs to come with a need for change.

    Is that wise?
    No, or rather, there is a preference towards questioning knowledge. This is the same as adaptation; a belief is only as good as it is functional. You are only as competitive as your actions allow. By having faith in a singular concept, you must either have a very good belief that is universally true for all eternity, or you must be willing to adapt. Since life (everything from society, technology, knowledge, etc) is in constant flux, so must beliefs.

    Simple test; if you were born 3000 years ago but were immortal, should you believe what you did 3000 years ago? If you were born during the Spanish Inquisition, the Crusades, etc should you still believe the same things?

    Wouldn't it be to everyone's advantage to understand why you believe what you believe?
    Not really; we can pretend to be rational, but we aren't. You believe in what you believe because you are programmed to believe in it. It's pretty much that simple, be it a belief in science or a belief in religion. However, I think saying that believing in the one that offers the greatest chance for survival makes sense is fairly true.

    Or is there some benefit to being ignorant of your own belief system?
    Individually, a huge benefit. To know the ins and outs of a belief system is to make decisions based on these values rather than the external world. The less to know of your belief system, the more flexible you are... This is kind of a max/min thing - too ignorant is bad, if for example it leads to a poor moral compass, etc. By ignorant, I'm assuming that one means "average" knowledge of our own beliefs, or slightly less. Beliefs are there to justify behaviour, not drive it, so it doesn't really matter much until you get "really ignorant". In the end, what really matters is how reactionary one is - someone who processes a moral situation through reactionary programmed rules isn't going to become less reactionary as they learn more about the rules they have programmed. And someone who will contemplate it won't becomes less contemplative as they learn more.

    How many of our beliefs have no basis other than what has been dictated by our respected religions or been passed down by our parents?
    Pretty much all institutionalised beliefs - logically, they have to come from somewhere, otherwise we'd have 6 billion versions of gods and beliefs, no geographical concentration of beliefs, no migration of beliefs...

    How should beliefs be passed on to children?
    Two opposing forces - 1) They shouldn't, this is the reason why the parents die off - adaption. 2) As much as is required to ensure society is holistic enough to be unified against outsiders.

    This is where the difference between forms of beliefs becomes important. It is important to have shared holidays (say, like New Years, or "X-mas" (or rather, Winter Solstice, as it should be known)... even Valentines and the like) for a unified view. It's a mixed bag having a common religion, or a dominant religion, unless it is a secular society to start with (allowing for "capitalism" of religion)... and it is negative if the beliefs are fundamentalist (extreme tradition).

    Should they be indoctrinated or allowed to choose what they believe for themselves?
    The reality is that we form our views of the world as children, and so they won't be able to pick for themselves, ever, in a vaccuum.

    Having said that, there is no possible solution that would allow them to form their own opinion... they need information and we provide it. So they should be indoctrinated, but as a society, indoctrinated with those that offer survival traits. The underlying principles matter more than the beliefs anyway. Religion doesn't have to stand in the way of science, for example (with science being the superior survival mechanism currently)... but if it chooses to, then that society will likely be consumed by another. So beliefs aren't as threatening if the they don't affect the whole - so it probably should stay within the family to decide... it's only a concern when it starts hurting survival.

  10. #10
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    How do you deal or cope with people who have a different belief system? I become incredibly frustrated with people who believe differently than me because...well I think I'm always right. Sadly, I generally want to argue with them and make them understand my point of view. Would you say that is just a human trait or a lack of maturity?
    I think it depends. 'Different belief system' to me equates to a philosophical/metaphysical/religious/spiritual belief system.
    So in that context, as long as they don't push their agenda on me or others, I try to be ok with it.

    Usually I don't partake in any discussions though, simply because it's a topic that gets my heart beating way too fast simply *because* I've invested so much time in thinking about it, and I don't want to get invested in a discussion when I ultimately see no compromise/harmony being reached. If others just want to share and express themselves, intellectually I am curious to hear about their thoughts and beliefs, because beliefs shape a person and define who they are and how they perceive the world and life.

    I don't have any argumentative streak in me at all. I'm horrible at it anyway. I nominate myself as the worst debater in the history of the world. Much of it in the religion context is my belief that there is absolutely no point in arguing about it; it's not like I'm going to be convincing anyone of anything, and I have no goal to change peoples' belief systems - I would actually feel pretty bad if I was the source/instigator of someone losing their religion...because in many ways it's more pleasant to be religious and hold those beliefs. I don't want to take that away from people. Also I am one who believes in the power of choice, and I want people to choose and find things for themselves, and take the mental journey if they desire it.

    I'm starting to remember that I've pondered this before. :-) When you move beyond the philosophy/religion context and work your way to more fundamental things like morality and a persons' character and how he treats others, then that's where I won't 'deal' with people who have morals that are harmful (and defining that is another topic). Ultimately if a person means well, and has a good heart, and is not out to harm others, I'm able to 'deal' if they have different specific beliefs.

    Hehe...found it. I wrote this awhile ago: Parents attempt to instill their ethics in their children - ethics being the key word. And I would venture to say that, for the most part, the children end up having similar, or the same, ethics. Now I stress the word ethics because I'm keeping it distinct from beliefs. By ethics I mean very fundamental traits, such as honesty, justice, compassion, forgiveness, the golden rule, etc. (or the lack of these traits). Children, I think, observe and eventually imitate and follow the ethics of their parents or of very important figures (role models) around them. And perhaps in some cases, individuals may "overcome" any parental lack of ethics and start afresh, but even then I wouldn't think they could know of something different unless they interacted with someone different. Now beliefs are a different story, because while beliefs very well have an individual's ethics as a foundation, several beliefs may arise using the same ethical ideal, and it can get quite complicated because most beliefs have several conflicting ethical ideals and an individuals' belief is the result of which ethic, if you will, takes priority over another ethic. For example, two people may both hold honesty in high regard. The first may also hold compassion in an equally high regard, and so if the choice was presented where he had to choose between telling the truth or withholding the truth to prevent unnecessary pain, that person might choose to withhold the truth because he viewed that result to do the greater good. The second person might conclude that honesty always takes precedence over compassion, no matter what the instance, because the affected individual does not deserve to live in ignorance. This is what I mean by beliefs versus ethics. Using this same example, one person may believe that honesty should be applied only when inquired upon or when his opinion is sought and not when it is unprovoked, but another person might believe that he should be honest even when there is no "reason," or provocation, for him being honest. It is my contention that beliefs do not make a good or bad person, it is ethics. Now, this does not mean that certain beliefs are not inherantly bad...because there are beliefs that are inherantly bad, but when you get to the root of the belief it is bad because of the ethics behind the belief....The belief that there is nothing wrong, or inherantly bad, about premarital sex can have several beliefs behind it, depending on the person - one person may believe love has nothing to do with sex, and thus will follow lust, another person may believe love has everything to do with sex, and will cringe at the idea of sex with someone he doesn't love. And from these beliefs you work your way down to what is at the core, which to me would be the ethic of love - both love for yourself and love for another, and where the importance lies, and these ethics -- love for oneself versus another, or immediate gratification versus patience, or animal versus emotional, or even godless versus godly (this last one is a belief, by the way, not an ethic) -- are what is instilled by parents or authority figures, not the behaviors themselves. The children can come up with countless different beliefs, based on the same ethic(s), and it is these varying beliefs that cause distress in parents, when it is not the beliefs that should necessarily cause the stress, but the ethics behind them.

    ...And I believe that institutions turn many actions (i.e. divorce, drugs, premarital sex, etc.) into morals, when the actions in and of themselves do not say squat about whether a person is ethical or unethical, has a good heart or a bad heart, is enlightened or misguided. Things such as these have no business being placed in the field of ethics, and an action such as premarital sex can be extremely unethical, or extremely ethical, depending upon the motivation and heart of the individual, and marriage does not magically make sex ethical because the individuals themselves, though married, may have unethical motivations or a very poor character at heart.

    Regardless, it is easy to say that you are tolerant of other people's beliefs, but how tolerant are you when somebody is trying to impose their religious/political beliefs or view of the world on your life?
    Not tolerant.

    Would you say your views are more relative or absolute?
    I think I'm extremely relative on a belief basis; but fairly absolute on an ethical basis.

    Where should our focus be in addressing our beliefs systems and the belief systems of others? Should we be aiming for tradition, compromise, or progress?
    I don't know. I'm not sure how relevant the question is, because each person is going to have a different opinion on which of the three should be aimed for.

    It seems that a good share of people just blindly follow their beliefs. Is that wise? Wouldn't it be to everyone's advantage to understand why you believe what you believe? Or is there some benefit to being ignorant of your own belief system?
    As for is it wise, well, it very well may be on a personal happiness scale - you know the quote, 'Ignorance is Bliss.' :-)

    But like Whatever, I have a difficult time understanding those who have no reason for believing what they believe, other than 'Well, it's how I was brought up.' That's lame to me. I mean, I get it, but I have a difficult time respecting the person.

    How many of our beliefs have no basis other than what has been dictated by our respected religions or been passed down by our parents?
    Oh, I'd say nearly all of them. I mean, there's no way to experiment and really know, but I'm who I am today because of all 29 years worth of experiences and nurturing. All of us are influenced by other people. So my upbringing in a church no doubt has influenced who I am today, in terms of ethics. However, I don't hold any religious beliefs anymore. And admittedly, much of my relativism is due to this fact -- To me, this simple idea of the culture we happen to grow up in being the factor that molds our future beliefs is the single-most powerful argument against the rightness of any one religion/institution/belief system.

    How should beliefs be passed on to children? Should they be indoctrinated or allowed to choose what they believe for themselves?
    I'm not even going to pretend to know this, and since I don't have children of my own, I don't feel like I have a good vantage point for even being able to answer it. But in theory I like the idea of children choosing what to believe -- again, this is broad beliefs. I'd like to be able to share a variety of belief systems with them, like various religions, and let them pick. But I'd sure try to teach ethics outside of a religious context.
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